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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tory meltdown hurting our chances to turn Labour round?

232 replies

teawamutu · 17/10/2022 18:51

Something I'm worrying about - the Tory shitshow is so comprehensive it's looking like Labour just have to hang on until the next election and step into government. Doesn't give them much incentive to listen to women, does it?

I hope I'm wrong but it's on my mind.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 20/10/2022 14:19

The headlines of these men, in womens jails, these men in womens toilets are all happening under a Tory government.

So are you under the impression that Labour are going to sort these issues out then since they are so sincerely pro women?

MangyInseam · 20/10/2022 14:16

tiggergoesbounce · 20/10/2022 13:57

It still baffles me that they can claim the Tories are the better option for women, when they have had soooo long to resolve these issues and hasnt.
The headlines of these men, in womens jails, these men in womens toilets are all happening under a Tory government.

The tories may look like they will make changes, they havent done, nor do i believe they will.
They are showing you who they are by what is actually happening, they are allowing women rights to be diminished.
They are certainly no better than labour, if not worse for allowing it to continue for 10years + on their watch.

There are two problems with this.

The first being that there are changes happening under the Tories on this issue. Perhaps more under BJ than Truss, but they have been happening.

But it's also a statement that takes no consideration around how this ideology has operated. Gender ideology exploded onto the scene some 10 years ago, in different countries, largely without regard to what political party was in power.

It operated by capturing officials and institutions quietly, at a low level, and by convincing citizens ad political leaders that it was just another element of gay rights and was also medically and scientifically supported. Articles were published in popular, trusted sources like National Geographic, Scientific American, etc, and major media sources like the Guardian, BBC, CBC, hopped right on board.

The UK, and really England, has actually been unique in stepping back and putting the brakes on the policy element. Unlike countries like Canada, NZ, Scotland, even the US. We don't know for sure, but based o their response there is every reason to think if Labour had been in, the UK would now have laws like Canada, where a women's shelter cannot legally refuse to admit a woman with a penis.

That still, today, seems to be the approach Labour is taking.They have not even allowed open discussion in the party on the issue, which has been disturbing to many even apart from the issue of gender ideology itself. (What else might they not discuss even if their MPs and members are concerned about it.)

No one who makes this argument you have made has ever been able to claim that it would have been different under Labour, because we all know that it would not, it would be worse. Why this exploded as an international issue that captured s many institutions is well worth considering, but it was not caused by the Conservative Party.

Signalbox · 20/10/2022 14:08

Can't believe Liz Truss has just resigned. What a shit show!

Dammitthisisshit · 20/10/2022 14:07

fromorbit · 17/10/2022 23:19

A Labour win is definitely on the cards. However there is the growing strength of Labour's Women's Declaration to consider too. More MPs than ever have come out in support at Conference we have about 6 openly and there are by all accounts another 30 to 40 secret Terfy Labour MPs. A lot of other MPs may be shiftable too. With them, remaining Tories, Terfy SNP MPs plus the House of Lords a long debate in Parliament over Self ID may result in a bunch of amendments and backtracking. A bill may fail or get amended so much it is meaningless. Unlike the Scottish Parliament we have a big base of people who are going to raise hell over any bill in Westminster. Labour are also not going to make it priority legislation. If they even get round to pushing it, they will have a lot of other stuff to worry about. Plus by then Cass Report will be in, Mermaids might be gone and there will be more detrans news.

What is crucial is gaining more power in the party at all levels that can flip others, there are people who just need a chance to express doubt so they can peak. The most fanatical trans rights types in Labour are mostly on the party left so they are getting weaker. We have advantages in that the TRAs all regard Starmer as effectively a Terf and hate him because he tolerates Rosie etc. The reality is Starmer doesn't care about us or TRAs particularly. He only cares about winning power. It is other people in the party pushing this. The TRAs are so fanatical they will alienate people over time. Just turning up can make TRAs leave the party, many have already gone just like in the Greens. We need more people in the party to fight locally and at conference. Even before election party members get to have input on policy and on the manifesto. Lots of chances to kick up a fuss and debate. Also remember another key Labour policy is a crusade against violence against women - obviously this raises questions like what is a women and why if the violent person is trans do they get special treatment?

labour.org.uk/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls/

As Floisme said we need a coordinated effort to start debate in every constituency not just in Labour but every party. Make sure it isn't a one party issue. Get every candidate to place their cards on the table on prisons, sport, self id, mermaids etc.

What you say is heartening and I want you to be right. But I think self-ID is too entrenched in the Labour outlook.

I am hopeful that the House of Lords will block the worst of the legislation. But for how many iterations?

Signalbox · 20/10/2022 14:07

If people resign from the party and refuse to engage, they can hardly complain when policy is formed without them.

If people support "the party" regardless of the batshit policies that are proposed then they can hardly complain when those batshit policies come to fruition. The SNP are a good example of this. We can look forward to Labour following suit.

That's why so many GC Labour members refused to be swayed by the "Labour Losing Women" campaign. They've achieved a great deal.

What have they achieved? And if they're so confident in their achievements why is it necessary to berate women that chose a different path?

Refusing to engage with a party that, right now, is looking almost certain to form the next Government is foolhardy.

Foolhardy? What's do you think is going to happen if we "refuse to engage"?
Self ID? "conversion therapy" ban? Ignoring the findings of the Cass Review? Making misgendering a Hate Crime? "Updating" the Equality Act to make it even harder for the courts to interpret?

I think that most of these things are inevitable when Labour win their majority. And it won't be the women complaining about it that make it happen.

ReunitedThorns · 20/10/2022 14:07

The civil service are in control and they're responsible for most of these policies and just get ministers to rubber stamp them.

Most ministers (of whatever party) don't care one way or the other, they just want to look nice and so sign off anything that would appear to look nice.

Dammitthisisshit · 20/10/2022 14:05

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

MangyInseam · 20/10/2022 14:04

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 13:56

but not the sort of women…

this kind of statement is always very revealing to me. I see exactly who someone is when they say it.

Yes, you know, like Helen Joyce, or Baroness Nicholson, Mary Harrington, maybe? just people who really don't give a shit about women.

Seriously, do people really believe Labour/left/id pol = people who care for others, Tories/conservatives = greed is good?

Do they just ignore all the people who don't seem to fit that pattern?

tiggergoesbounce · 20/10/2022 13:57

It still baffles me that they can claim the Tories are the better option for women, when they have had soooo long to resolve these issues and hasnt.
The headlines of these men, in womens jails, these men in womens toilets are all happening under a Tory government.

The tories may look like they will make changes, they havent done, nor do i believe they will.
They are showing you who they are by what is actually happening, they are allowing women rights to be diminished.
They are certainly no better than labour, if not worse for allowing it to continue for 10years + on their watch.

MangyInseam · 20/10/2022 13:57

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 13:24

No, the post was deleted for Troll hunting me. I did not troll hunt, I pointed out that this forum has been the target of Tory shills spreading Tory lies eg. "at least the Conservatives know what a woman is".

If you believe that the Tories don't send shills here you are gullible.

It's quite possible, I am pretty sure there are some Labour ones too. Though I have wondered if they are over-paying them, given the types of arguments they come up with.

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 13:56

but not the sort of women…

this kind of statement is always very revealing to me. I see exactly who someone is when they say it.

MangyInseam · 20/10/2022 13:41

but not the sort of women who stand up for women's rights.

Gotta love the "wrong sort of woman" thing. Left wing feminism is great at that.

Which is the major reason I no longer feel any loyalty to some kind of ideological left.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 13:33

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 13:24

No, the post was deleted for Troll hunting me. I did not troll hunt, I pointed out that this forum has been the target of Tory shills spreading Tory lies eg. "at least the Conservatives know what a woman is".

If you believe that the Tories don't send shills here you are gullible.

Whatever. I’ve been here long enough to know which posters I know and appreciate.

And I bet Labour do too.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 13:31

Tanith · 20/10/2022 13:24

You won't get the kind of clarity you desire from any politician. Policy for all parties is still being formed.

If people resign from the party and refuse to engage, they can hardly complain when policy is formed without them. That's why so many GC Labour members refused to be swayed by the "Labour Losing Women" campaign. They've achieved a great deal.
Refusing to engage with a party that, right now, is looking almost certain to form the next Government is foolhardy.

Not much point them in trying to infer from ‘softening language’ on snapshots on Twitter then.

Starmer may be realising that Labour is not in favour with most on this issue (finally) or still trying to placate TRA. At some point he’s going to have to address the issue and annoy one camp. I assume in a manifesto for a GE if any sense.

severnboring · 20/10/2022 13:28

I'm not a Labour member, I'm a possible Labour voter.

I first heard 'work is being done behind closed doors' in 2016. It's 2022.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2022 13:24

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 12:02

Was that deleted post just repeating that others may be paid? Seems odd it can only go in one direction.

Anyway those trying to stifle discussion don’t bother.

No, the post was deleted for Troll hunting me. I did not troll hunt, I pointed out that this forum has been the target of Tory shills spreading Tory lies eg. "at least the Conservatives know what a woman is".

If you believe that the Tories don't send shills here you are gullible.

Tanith · 20/10/2022 13:24

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 12:49

Of course language can be watered down if a party finally recognises, since 2019, the general view is not in their side.

They need to be clear what their policies will be still. Starmer has fudged language but that is not useful to us.

We can’t decipher his hedging waffle for him, we need clarity.

You won't get the kind of clarity you desire from any politician. Policy for all parties is still being formed.

If people resign from the party and refuse to engage, they can hardly complain when policy is formed without them. That's why so many GC Labour members refused to be swayed by the "Labour Losing Women" campaign. They've achieved a great deal.
Refusing to engage with a party that, right now, is looking almost certain to form the next Government is foolhardy.

TheClogLady · 20/10/2022 12:52

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 12:02

Was that deleted post just repeating that others may be paid? Seems odd it can only go in one direction.

Anyway those trying to stifle discussion don’t bother.

Yep. It was merely a tongue in cheek refutation of the accusations made by a previous poster!

Which rather demonstrates how authoritarian the left has become…

Dissent, jokes, pushback?

Quick, get the clipboard out and report to the authorities!

It reminds me of when Cartman briefly became a South Park police officer 😁

see also: Billy Bragg.

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 12:49

Of course language can be watered down if a party finally recognises, since 2019, the general view is not in their side.

They need to be clear what their policies will be still. Starmer has fudged language but that is not useful to us.

We can’t decipher his hedging waffle for him, we need clarity.

Tanith · 20/10/2022 12:44

bellinisurge · 20/10/2022 12:14

Lachlan Harris on Twitter claims that Labour is watering down its language.
Not convinced myself

twitter.com/lachlan_edi/status/1582964569055514625?s=46&t=e23RZgFUXBxBNRCnRgIIeg

I am.

Lachlan Harris is an ex-advisor to the Labour party and says he's seen documents that encourage him. He's also rightly commended the women who have worked so hard within the party to get them to this stage.
The evidence is there, in his tweets. The language is watered down. That's why the TRAs are not happy with Starmer's speech yesterday and they're still demanding for Rosie Duffield to be sacked.

It's looking very likely that we'll see a Labour Government soon. Whatever lies are put out by the Conservatives will make little difference. What will make the difference is staying to shape policy.
The current difficulties of the Conservative party is what happens when you let a single issue take over and drive the grown ups from the room.

ScreamingMeMe · 20/10/2022 12:20

bellinisurge · 20/10/2022 12:14

Lachlan Harris on Twitter claims that Labour is watering down its language.
Not convinced myself

twitter.com/lachlan_edi/status/1582964569055514625?s=46&t=e23RZgFUXBxBNRCnRgIIeg

He also said this. Have to agree with Sarah here: it doesn't fill me with much confidence.

Tory meltdown hurting our chances to turn Labour round?
Tory meltdown hurting our chances to turn Labour round?
bellinisurge · 20/10/2022 12:14

Lachlan Harris on Twitter claims that Labour is watering down its language.
Not convinced myself

twitter.com/lachlan_edi/status/1582964569055514625?s=46&t=e23RZgFUXBxBNRCnRgIIeg

MarshaBradyo · 20/10/2022 12:02

Was that deleted post just repeating that others may be paid? Seems odd it can only go in one direction.

Anyway those trying to stifle discussion don’t bother.

bellinisurge · 20/10/2022 12:02

Completely agree OP. Labour will sweep in with all the TRA bollocks and claim to have a mandate for selfID.
Starmer gave some speech last night to Pink News saying he wants to uphold the Equality Act "including single-sex spaces" and make it work better or some such woolly shit. If sex becomes codified as gender which it is now in Ireland, single sex spaces under Labour will mean fuck all.
Don't expect my X. I know the Tories are shit and I want them gone. It's for Labour to convince me not for me to Be Kind. Again.

WahineToa · 20/10/2022 11:52

Women will vote for whoever they like.

Oh they will? But your objection here is because you don’t want women here telling other women to vote Tory. What’s the problem if they vote for whoever they like anyway? I mean your posts are pretty strange and don’t join up. Seems like you just don’t want anyone here talking politics or influencing others in any way. How do you think people decide on who they’re voting for if nobody is allowed to discuss the issues?

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