Trans-identifying people seeking extra rights

I’ve thought this previously too.

Surely it would be transphobic to not note a trans person is trans. Give that being trans means they have specific medical needs for one. By erasing that part of their identity and pretending they were really born as whichever sex they are now identifying as the gender stereotype of, isn’t that more offensive?

It’s like how you would be crucified for pointing out how someone who has lived as a straight white male for 50 years before deciding to transition, as benefited from their male privilege for the vast majority of their life and that entitlement doesn’t go away!

”women saying no” isn’t discrimination though, that’s women exercising their rights.

Can you describe what ‘discrimination’ you then see on this board when you said:

I have unfortunately seen many posts that have discriminated against trans people on this forum.

Or is this another comment about bad faith posts that are deleted rather than a generalisation about this board?

What a nasty post. The po-faced referenced (to be taken at face value of some insinuation) to a presumed sacred caste. And, then the complete change of, and dismissive, tone when talking about women. Sure, who do those women think they are?

I see the #bekind squad are out in force today.

But another person could not get their birth certificate changed so that it said they were born in a different place? What if, for example, someone was born in the UK to Irish parents who moved back to Ireland when that person was a baby. That person grew up in Ireland, with Irish family, with no real connection to the UK. They are Irish. They would not be allowed to change their birth certificate to say they were born in Ireland because that's not what happened. It would be a lie, a fiction.

Yes, this, entirely. A birth certificate is not meant to represent your life story - it's a record of the facts of your birth. You can't claim to have been born in a different place or on a different date or to a different mother* so why can you change the material fact of your sex at birth?

I've never yet seen an acceptable answer as to why you we all agree it would be impossible and absurd to try to change your race or age, but when it comes to gender - which is frequently blurred as one into 'sex' nowadays, it's not just entirely possible, but that those who have any doubt that it is possible are hateful and in need of education!

Even if your ideology believes that gender and sex are the same thing and/or that you have truly 100% transitioned, what have you transitioned FROM, if you expect your BC to state what you identify as NOW? Surely, insisting that TWAW and TMAM and that a BC should reflect your 'transitioned' identity is actually seeking to deny and erase the experiences of trans people - if anything, that is clearly 'transphobic'.

Why don't we go further and put occupations on BCs (as in, the baby's - not the parents')? If you study hard at medical school and end up spending 40 years at the top of your career, why wouldn't you want 'Doctor' to be proudly shown on your BC? Why should damehoods, knighthoods and the like not be retro-recorded in an update of your BC?!

*I know the Guardian TM journalist did try to fight to do this, but they were rightly prevented from legally being recognised as the 'father' of the baby whom they had pushed out of their vagina - believing (correctly) that men can only be fathers but quite happily ignoring the fact that an actual biological man could never do what they had just done, which has been recognised since the beginning of time as the very action that makes you a baby's biological mother.

Personally, I think that goes one step further in the whole sphere of controlling doublethink: using somebody else's BC to validate your beliefs for yourself. How can a BC not have the mother's name on it? How is the baby meant to process the idea for the rest of their life that, although they have obviously been born and exist, officially, nobody ever gave birth to them? It would be like having the official authorised title deeds to a house, but without any address or location-marker on them!

I find it really odd that you had to do that. If someone in the future is researching your family tree then surely her name at birth and your marital status form part of that.
Also she now has no proof, should she ever need it, that her birth name was different.

Which other "marginalised groups scream abuse and death threats against those whose opinions may differ?

So if this change won’t affect anything like access to sports or the opposite sexes spaces, what is the point? Why would a trans person bother changing their birth certificate if it gave them no changes to their everyday life, such as using the spaces designated for their birth sex?

Because it is used to create identification that then feeds into allowing access into female safe spaces and sports (if testing is not carried out. And it is not at most levels, but I could be wrong there).

"At the end of the day I’ve never received a death threat just for being a woman. But I know that happens to trans people."

I have. I've received death threats from abusive men for being a woman.
In the UK how many women are murdered?

I don't understand why anyone that isn't trans would give a shit about this. Who cares what it says on someone else's birth certificate? I can understand the concerns around trans people in sports and womens spaces but worrying about this just seems daft given that if will affect you in literally no way at all but will make a trans person's life a little bit less difficult.

No because I’m not discriminatory to women because of an abusive few.
Don’t accuse me of things I have not said.

lifeturnsonadime

Yes. I was about to post something similar myself.

The people here read as an indication of a generalisation about this board. Hence why so many questioned and commented.

But beyond had sought to clarify that it is deleted and not prevalent.

”women saying no” isn’t discrimination though, that’s women exercising their rights.

I find it odd that you started your post by finding it odd I don’t get death threats for being a woman, saying that you do, but you can’t handle the notion that unprovoking trans people also receive abuse just for the group they fit into.

It very much happens. And no, not just to the ones that push for womens spaces, it happens merely for being trans in the same way you say it happens to you for being a woman.

The poster accused child of incest and being a sex offender because of the term “ trans girl”.
Easy to say this is bullshit, but I’m not making that up.

There may have been one post, I don't know, I didn't see it. Thank goodness Mumsnet deleted it.

This was your original point -

What I said was that there are people here who can and will see “trans” and accuse innocent children of being sex offenders for no reason other than they identify as trans.

Which strongly implies that multiple 'people' on mumsnet who hold this belief. This is what I called bullshit on. You could have chosen to say 'a poster' which has a different meaning.

Or are you holding ALL women concerned about women's rights to account on the basis of one bad apple?

Are you saying because there was one person who posted something transphobic about children NO women have the right to discourse?

You can't really say that denying a trans woman access to female sports is discrimination though. They're not being denied because they're trans, they're being denied because they're male.

Technically it is discrimination based on sex.

So much discussion focuses on discrimination only being negative. There can be examples of positive discrimination too, such as spaces for people with a protected characteristic. Perfectly legal and moral.

However, often when people use ‘discrimination’ they refer to the negative impact. So, yes. Males are discriminated against by them not being able to access female sporting categories.

So after this epic derail, did we ever get to the point of which rights trans people think they are being denied that everyone else has, and what rights they want that no one else has.

so far we have….
Transpeople can hide previous names on a DBS check when no one else can
transpeople are allowed to access spaces that no one else of their sex can.

No mumsnet are very good in my experience of removing abusive posts.
I have seen a large number of abusive posts but it’s a large and diverse forum so I couldn’t and wouldn’t say it was “generally abusive”. I’m just highlighting that it exists in a way that is unprovoked and towards children, which I think is important.

Well that’s impossible isn’t it unfortunately because mumsnet removes abusive posts. And I have nothing to prove. I’m not a liar. If you don’t believe that people say those things it’s no skin off my nose.

You can obviously take it up with mumsnet if you care that much. I’m sure they wouldn’t lie

No one is calling you a liar. Did you read my post? I actually said no one denies that abusive posts get posted… and deleted.

If you are claiming that abusive and discriminatory posts don’t get deleted and ‘exist’ on Mumsnet, please post that evidence.

I doubt you will find any posters on this board who will disagree that posts that are clearly abusive should not be deleted.

We are asking if you have any that still exist that show that those posts indicate that MN boards are generally abusive?

You made the comment about discrimination being posted here all the time. Are you including those abusive posts in that statement too?

No there was nothing mentioned about school trips or residential stays. The poster accused child of incest and being a sex offender because of the term “ trans girl”.
Easy to say this is bullshit, but I’m not making that up.
Im happy for mumsnet to check the deleted posts as what I said is true and without exaggeration. It does unfortunately exist here.

The minority that behave like this completely destroy any potential progress and compromise because they just turn up to fuel the fire.

I might not agree with some other members of this forum, but my experience so far is valid as are my balanced views and empathy for those who hold opposing views. I can see your views are valid too. But sadly not in cases like these which do happen and fuel hate from all sides.

I'm surprised you've never been threatened with death just for being a woman. I have, lots. I don't think it's that unusual.

As for trans people being discriminated against just for being trans. I disagree that's the case.

Trans people who don't try and impinge on women's rights, either in sports or in their access of single sex spaces I don't believe they're discriminated or judged in the slightest. All my trans friends would never dream of making women uncomfortable by using the wrong sex facilities.

Trans people who try and overcome these boundaries, well yes I've seen women say no.

You can't really say that denying a trans woman access to female sports is discrimination though. They're not being denied because they're trans, they're being denied because they're male.

I am trying to work out whether the post refers to legal discrimination under the law, or otherwise.

Because I also thought that the current discrimination laws in the UK were strong enough to protect trans people from discrimination. They are certainly deemed strong enough to protect females … maybe they are seeking asymmetrical protections rather than pushing for all discrimination laws to be tested and applied properly.

What I said was that there are people here who can and will see “trans” and accuse innocent children of being sex offenders for no reason other than they identify as trans.

I'm calling bullshit on this.

It is adults who have proven themselves to be sex offenders who have trans identities that has been pointed out on this site. I have NEVER seem anyone suggest that child who identifies as trans is likely to be a sex offender.

I wonder if this is an objection to women wanting children to have single sex spaces on school trips and other residential stays?

Well that’s impossible isn’t it unfortunately because mumsnet removes abusive posts. And I have nothing to prove. I’m not a liar. If you don’t believe that people say those things it’s no skin off my nose.
You can obviously take it up with mumsnet if you care that much. I’m sure they wouldn’t lie

Me too. Sorry my mistake. I too prefer civil discussion.