Trans-identifying people seeking extra rights

There is nothing in the EA about which toilet transwomen can use. Toilets are not a legally bound thing.

What I will say is that if a male is in a facility where that male knows the females around them are anxious and uncomfortable, and doesn't give a shit, then that says a lot about the male in question.

I still think third spaces are an option that need further exploration.

Only because stonewall et al misrepresented the law to a lot of institutions. There is a provision for single sex spaces, but SW told everyone this was illegal, which is why the TRA are raging about the EHRC getting A status. Because the EHRC confirmed there is a right to single sex soaces, which would exclude TW from female soaces.

"Erm....why do you think we have single sex provision in certain situations in the first place"

It depends on the country. Some people complain about Unisex facilities in the UK but in some countries (eg in Scandinavia) Unisex facilities are actually the norm and everyone just goes about their day.

When was the last time you had to show your birth certificate to access a changing room or sports team? I dont even know where mine is frankly.

Is it that unfathomable that it might just make someone feel better about themselves?

It's often not required and taken on trust or appearances - BUT, if it comes down to it, it's always there as a final way of ultimately proving something and forcing somebody who, going on all appearances and circumstances, disagrees with you, to back down.

I agree that most of us probably don't know where our BCs are (although you can always get an official copy of it for a fee, if it's needed); but I would venture that those who have been allowed to retrospectively change their BC probably DO know where it is, and carry it around with them, to 'prove' what they got it changed for in the first place - in the same way that you always keep your passport to hand when abroad, but never give it a second thought when you're staying long-term in your own country. My sex was recorded at birth and I've never doubted or rejected it - nor has anybody ever suspected me of being the opposite sex - so why would I need quick access to a document to prove the obvious and undisputed?

It might make people feel better about themselves, but that is absolutely not the purpose of a BC, which is an official factual document. It might make you feel better if your BC said that you were born in Sydney or Malibu, but if you were actually born in Rhyl or Slough, you just have to live with that. Nobody is stopping you from later moving to Malibu - but you were still not born there.

Much more seriously, your parents may end up being perpetually abusive to you throughout your childhood, to the point that you, very understandably, end up hating them and having nothing more to do with them from the second that you turn 18. You may long for the day that you can finally go and spit on their graves; but you still cannot ever change your BC so that it says your lovely Aunt & Uncle were your biological parents instead of them.

And let’s not even start on the likes of “Dylan” and his “day whatthefuckever of being a GIRL” a grown MAN playing at being a little girl, speaking at women’s conferences and warping the minds of impressionable young people. Reducing womanhood to the stereotypes of handbag shopping and lipstick, prancing around in heels dancing in next to nothing whilst telling the world we must accept he’s a girl. The world is rotting from the core because we have given our much fought-for rights to men, given the oppressors the badge of the oppressed and must now bow down, shut up and be kind whilst they invade every aspect of female safety.

If this is about the GRA bill, it isn't about "extra rights" for transpeople and doesn't take any rights away from women or anyone. Nicola Sturgeon helpfully explained all this and what it does and doesn't do.

This is a brilliant point. And I think some posters have misunderstood me highlighting that these posts exist to mean that mumsnet is full of hate and abuse and generally abusive.
Its not and they are brilliant at removing abusive posts, I have seen some disgusting content and each time it has been removed within minutes.
I still think it’s important to highlight that it happens - not that it’s synonymous with mumsnet users as a group, it often is bad faith posters.
I wasn’t highlighting it to vilify posters on the board. I was highlighting it to recognise that it does happen. And even if it’s coming from bad faith posters, that doesn’t mean we should pretend it doesn’t happen.

Pretty sure trans women can already use womens loo's under the equality act tho regardless of what their BC says.

I understand the concerns around self ID and women's spaces etc, I really do. But this just doesn't feel like an issue.

Exactly, you don't show your birth certificate to get into a changing room.

So, in a society where everyone knows that any man, whether they 'live as a woman' (whatever that means) or not, can change his legal sex with the flick of a pen with no gatekeeping at all, it will be much easier for predatory men to access women's spaces.

They wouldn't even have to go to the trouble of filling in the form because, as you say, you don't bring your birth certificate to a public changing room. They could just say 'how dare you question me, of course my birth certificate says I'm female, you transphobic bigot' if challenged. And what could a woman say in reply?

“I don't understand why anyone that isn't trans would give a shit about this. Who cares what it says on someone else's birth certificate?”

I care! Because it’s not just a piece of paper, is it? It’s the ability to change documented fact to suit themselves, to force others around them to deny reality and play along with their AGP larp fest.

It’s being told the language used to describe real biological women is worthless. It’s having a midwife refer to me as a birthing person, chest feeder or cervix haver. It’s being told I am “cis” having my womanhood reduced to an afterthought whilst the original term is handed on a silver platter to a man who has never had to face the struggles women do.

It’s having to explain to my daughter why there is a man in the swimming pool changing rooms, it’s having to reassure her that no it’s not ok, and that until it changes we have to put up with it. Then having to tell her we won’t be going back to that pool for a while.

It's having MEN as a period ambassador.

Its having MEN as leads in a women’s refuge for domestic violence.

Its having MEN, convicted rapists, being placed in women’s prisons.

It’s having MEN commit heinous crimes and them being documented as being women’s crimes.

It’s spending considerable time searching for period product companies that still use the term woman and not bleeder.

It’s ensuring my money isn’t going to a supermarket that disregards women’s safety to have “inclusive” changing areas.

It’s making sure companies I buy from don’t donate to stonewall.

It is EVERYWHERE, it’s not about a bloody birth certificate it’s about being attacked on every bloody front!!!

Erm....why do you think we have single sex provision in certain situations in the first place?

It's precisely because in certain situations we do 'tar all men with the same brush'.

My husband is a lovely man who would never hurt anyone and is not a danger to women. On that basis should he be allowed in women's changing rooms?

So all that abuse and threats to women is not transpeople then? So who is doing it?

What doesn't make me feel better is the thought of some scumbag wanking in the next cubicle to me listening to me having a piss.

Well, to be honest I never gave had to prove my right to access female spaces, what with being female. But how can you deny an obvious male access to female spaces if their birth certificate states they are female? They now have ‘proof’ they are female and therefore rights to access those spaces.

On the deleted posts thing:

Mumsnet is a completely public forum which does not vet posters who register with them. Absolutely anyone can post on this website, and they do (especially on FWR!). All Mumsnet can do is delete transphobic and abusive posts, which is what they do.

You can't take posts that were deleted by Mumsnet and say 'that's what it's like on Mumsnet' - it's the exact opposite, it's not what it's like here, because they were deleted!

And that's before we consider the fact that we know that certain people post horrible posts on here and then screenshot them to Twitter to show how awful Mumsnet is.

I don’t know any that do. If you’re referring to trans people, they don’t.
A small number (by comparison to the whole community) might, but you cannot judge a whole community by the abusive behaviour of a small few.

If that were the case, surely all men would be abusers?

Thats the argument?

Ignore all the posts that tell you why it’s a problem and your rebuttal is that it doesn’t matter as someone feels a bit better?

Even though it’s at the expense of women?

Because it’s not simply about the birth certificate, which has been explained over and over

It might make someone feel better to have their birth date changed to a date which would make them 17 again. Are we all on board with people being able to change their birth certificate to make themselves feel better?

Why discriminate against people who want to change their other facts to fiction; to make themselves feel better.

No because I’m not discriminatory to women because of an abusive few.
Don’t accuse me of things I have not said.

So what was your point?

So if transpeople are so oppressed how come for example, if a woman objects to a TW being in a single sex space, she is vilified. Society will believe a male saying he has a right to be in a female space before a woman saying he has no right. Tell me again who is oppressed?

Absolutely. And just think, what other group besides men could demand to rewrite history, force the use of certain words and language upon others and infringe on women’s rights?

I read something recently “Only a man could look a woman in the eye and tell them without sarcasm that he was the most victimised in society”

When was the last time you had to show your birth certificate to access a changing room or sports team? I dont even know where mine is frankly.

Is it that unfathomable that it might just make someone feel better about themselves?

I don't understand why anyone that isn't trans would give a shit about this. Who cares what it says on someone else's birth certificate?

It's a legal document - and used collectively by many government departments when planning policy and provision for the population of a country. It's about you, but it doesn't only belong to you - in the same way that my driving licence only allows me to drive, but I can't dictate any of the recorded details on it, nor can I just award myself the right to drive a lorry or a bus without doing what the government demands by way of proof of training and ability, before they authorise it to be recorded on my driving licence.

Because if males can get a GRC and change their sex on their birth certificate really easily, it makes it much more difficult for women to defend their single sex spaces. For example, in a public toilet no one checks your birth certificate. But if we live in a society where everyone knows that any man could have easily 'changed their legal sex' and is now 'legally a woman', it is going to make it so much harder to for women to challenge any man who comes in. They could just say 'how dare you challenge men, I'm legally a woman, bigot!' Etc.

I'm not sure, but I believe that as it stands at the moment, a male convicted of a crime who has a GRC is automatically allowed to go to a female prison if that's where they want to go.

There are single sex exemptions in the EA which mean that even if someone has a GRC they could still be excluded from certain single sex provision, but the idea of 'legitimate ends' or whatever it says on the EA is quite subjective.

But it's about the societal concept of what being a woman is as well isn't it? If being a woman is 'it says F on your birth certificate', and any man can change their birth certificate simply by filling in a form with no gatekeeping at all, where does that leave women? Isn't it much easier to say if you were born male, you are male in law and vice versa, and then take it from there?

Give me a break. Oppressed. That is laughable.