Trans-identifying people seeking extra rights

@TheSmallestOneWasMadeline You say you are in favour of single sex spaces, but how exactly do you say provide a female HCP if a male can say they are female? If a traumatised woman asks for a female HCP and an obvious male turns up, how can she refuse. After all, his birth certificate says he’s female so he’s female in the eyes if the law. That’s what you’re advocating for.

And do you think men who really are sex predators are going to wait for "permission" to enter women's toilets and go through all the trouble of becoming trans? There's nothing to stop an abusive predatory man just entering women's toilets regardless if the law permits him to or not

All the trouble of becoming trans? Men literally just have to say the magic words 'I'm a woman'.
There was a saying I read on here, "the good men stay out, so the bad men stand out". We don't know which men want to harm us so the safest thing is female only facilities.

As far as I'm concerned, any grown man demanding access to spaces where women and children are at their most vulnerable are EXACTLY the men that need keeping out. Their gender feelings are irrelevant.

Well the human rights act says everybody has the right to not be discriminated against

Yes, this is all fine and dandy but Stonewall did a great job of convincing everyone that the comparator for men who call themselves women is women, when it is in fact other men.
So it would be discriminatory to stop transwomen using men's facilities or entering men's sporting competitions etc.

The law allows, in some circumstances for female only spaces, services and sports. This is what the TRA want removed, which is men oppressing women once again.

Why do birth certificates need changing anyway when they denote a person's sex not their 'gender'? Which the rampant TRA's tell us aren't the same thing?

Why the fuckety fuck should we have to pretend that a persons self image or expression makes any difference to their sex whatsoever?

Which ignored the fact that if males just stayed the fuck out of female sports in the first place, no one would have to check anything.

👏

If anyone can explain how they intend to prevent a fully passing TW from using the ladies using their BC with an M on it I'm all ears??

You are missing the point.

Society is formed through the interconnected affects of explicit laws, social conventions, cultural beliefs and pressures to change. You can't parcel up little bits and pieces and treat them as separate problems that don't affect each other.

So, the BC by itself isn't the thin pink line keeping males out of female spaces. But when you have a law that accepts that the sex on a BC can be "wrong" because mental gender and not body is what actually determines sex, you take a sledgehammer and knock a massive chunk out of everything that exists to deal with physical sex, which given that females are physically weaker, culturally disempowrred and sexually exploited, has a more significant impact on us than on males.

The simple existence of legal acceptance that BCs can be altered because that sex is overridden by mental gender makes it harder for female people to ask male people to leave the ladies, regardless of whether any specific male shows , or even has, an altered BC.

Doesn't seem to stop people constantly advising women on here not to put their children's bio dads on their BCs!

True - and I think it sometimes goes too far, although if it is a child protection issue, it makes sense. Strictly speaking, a birth is a record of the person giving birth and the person being born, as these are the only two factors that can be proved without any doubt at the time.

We would all hope that the father would be present, involved, caring and doing the basic job you would expect a father to do - and when that is the case, nobody has any qualms about naming him on there.

Of course, there is also the opposite anomaly, whereby the husband of a mother is 'officially' the father - and he is actually allowed to go and register the birth himself - even though there will obviously be times when he is not the father, whether knowingly or not.

Another one is being trans is absolutely not a mental illness and it's offensive to suggest it is.

I remember Theresa May going red in the face and shouting that being trans is NOT a mental illness. I think we need to dial it back a bit and, rather than bluster about how offensive it is to 'slur' somebody like this, bigoted people like May who feel that MI is somehow dirty or shameful need to seriously examine their prejudices and their shameful attitudes.

If you have a clearly sexed body aligning to one sex, but in your mind, you believe that you are the other - not just rejecting stereotypes, which is entirely a personal prerogative, but actually that you ARE the other sex - how can that not be an issue with mental processing and the mind not functioning as it should in accordance with the body? And I do believe that the use of the word 'gender' is just unnecessarily thrown into the mix to deliberately obfuscate and confuse.

There's nothing bad or shameful at all about MH problems and denying their existence only serves to deny the help and consideration that people with them may require. People in positions of power, like May, are nastily exploiting their own prejudices in order to subjugate and deprive vulnerable people who need and deserve help in their circumstances.

Nobody would dream of denying that, say, Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson has a physical disability and denounce the obvious sign of that - her use of a wheelchair - as a figment of people's imagination; and scream 'phobic' and 'hater' at anybody actually wanting to help by making sure that there's a ramp and accessible facilities at a building where she's going to be present. She is respected and esteemed for many things - and she has also campaigned to help and counter discrimination against others with disabilities, but never by claiming that those disabilities and needs don't actually exist.

Yes.

We hear 'it's because of the nasty TERFS that female athletes will have to have their genitals checked [or whatever it is they are saying] to play'.

Which ignored the fact that if males just stayed the fuck out of female sports in the first place, no one would have to check anything.

"It's the only one I can think of that doesn't require anyone to actually check and enforce to be honest"
Good guys stay out so the bad guys stand out.
Society expects men to respect women's privacy. That's totally reasonable

Exactly.

What does 'female only' actually mean, in a society which allows males to have 'female' on their birth certificate?

Last night some pissed up bloke had a piss in a public space and looked my teenage daughter in the eye as he did it. She was scared and the only reason I didn't go and lamp him was because it would have added to her discomfort.
But if he puts on a frock and goes in a mixed sex toilet with urinals and does the same, she's the bad guy for objecting that's ok.
Make it make sense.

It's the only one I can think of that doesn't require anyone to actually check and enforce to be honest

"Sure, so are you planning to use shoe size to filter people in and out of changing rooms? 🤔"
No, I'm saying very few actually pass and if they want to make women feel uncomfortable in previously safe spaces- mission accomplished.
Urinary Leash 2.0

It was be nice if they just stayed the fuck out

Like the 'six words' amendment in Scotland. Several political parties voted against rape survivors merely being able to request a female examiner.

If a birth certificate can be changed to falsely claim that a male is female, what language can women use to specify that they want to be treated/examined by a female?

There's a reason why the focus is always on toilets, rather than rape crisis services, hospital wards etc. It's a lot easier to say 'they just want to pee!!!!!' than to address the issue of women self excluding from such situations and other settings/services designed to support them.

But gender identity is a good filter?

How about men who identify as women having the courtesy to not enter female only spaces? Be kind! SIMPLES

If a man genuinely passes as a women - enough even not to be unnoticed in a female only space, realistically we can't stop him.

But realistically that isn't what is going on. Why would there be a need to have 'don't challenge anyone in this space' signs if people passed?

Why are we imagining scenarios where tw pass, when there's few TW spokespeople, celebrities or YouTube stars that do? I'm struggling to name any.

Sure, so are you planning to use shoe size to filter people in and out of changing rooms? 🤔

"If anyone can explain how they intend to prevent a fully passing TW from using the ladies using their BC with an M on it I'm all ears??"

Fully passing is pretty unusual- hands, feet, adams apple, feet splayed when they stand still. All giveaways.

Like most women, I'll keep my head down and get out as soon as I can if I see a transwomen in women's public toilet

Single sex spaces aren't just toilets at truck stops, single sex spaces are changing room, prisons, hospital wards, counselling sessions. When needing personal care, we need to ge able to say clearly which sex persons washes us. Girls as well as women use single sex spaces, so when men can enter, we have the double safeguarding risk of age difference as well as sex.

Allowing men to change the sex and become female alters language so we cannot say clearly what we want, or expect when someone says this is a female or women only service.

I love how TRAs think we have a problem with transmen in our spaces and our sports. I'm sorry that transmen get shit for being in our safe spaces but they are welcome to take refuge from dicks (not their arm skin ones, that's not a dick) as any other female born person. As long as they aren't doping, welcome in our sports too.
Not changing our language to describe ourselves for them. Will tolerate "women and trans men " "women and people who have a cervix etc ". Although I'm waivering on that one .

Sorry that should say stopping transgender people*

I'm not even saying I disagree with the provision of single sex spaces. I dont, at all. I think they are extremely important and should be protected.

But my original point was that allowing transgender people from altering their BC doesn't have any ramifications here because single sex spaces aren't policed in that, or any way.

If anyone can explain how they intend to prevent a fully passing TW from using the ladies using their BC with an M on it I'm all ears??

Indeed. Because how the sexes treat each other is cultural.

This is why even if you believe that males are not inherently and innately more sexually aggressive than female, once that has become a norm of males in a culture you cannot just throw away sex-specific protections based on other cultures not needing them.

In our culture female spaces, nudity and privacy have become fetishised by male people who find the idea of the hidden female space exciting, and so for now it is a self perpetuating need.

So if you want to get from here to that open, respectful, naked nirvana you can’t do it by throwing the doors open and telling the females not to be so prudish. (Well you can, but only if you think the resulting discomfort and abuse of female people is not important) . You have to do it by educating the male people to treat female people as, well, people and not fantasy fodder, and you create additional mixed sex spaces that female people may choose to use, and you wait until the female people feel safe enough that single sex spaces aren't being used.

But I can tell you this for free, one look at Pornhub proves male people are a very very very very very very very very long way away from giving female people and female bodies the basic level of respect that would make us feel confident they won't abuse mixed sex nude spaces.

why would you be upset if Buck came in but not a TW? Would you tell Buck to leave?

This type of discussion misses some significant points.

With testosterone treatment, these females can more likely pass than males. A traumatised female may be triggered by different aspects of someone they perceive as male. Many of these transitioned females fully understand that their presence can be distressing for other females because they have taken the steps to cosmetically appear more like males in their bodies. Those who understand they can cause other female’s distress have told us repeatedly they would find other facilities to use rather than cause distress to other females.

However, males who have gone through puberty are less likely to pass under scrutiny and females picking up cues. Some, maybe too many very loud ones saying they speak for all, males don’t seem to have similar understanding about female trauma. And so don’t extend that consideration to others.

Either way, those saying that females who have the full effects of testosterone changes potentially will still cause issues with some females with backgrounds of trauma and abuse. I am not sure attempting an absolute solution is useful .

If a male walks into a female changing room, and he 'identifies as a man', the women in the changing room are allowed to challenge him. They are allowed to feel anxiety, discomfort, and allowed to ask him to leave.

If a male walks into a female changing room and he 'identifies as a woman' then the women in the changing room are not allowed to challenge him. They are not allowed to feel anxiety or discomfort of ask him to leave. In fact to do or feel any of those things would make them 'disgusting transphobic bigots'.

So, in this situation, taking place in a space meant for women, it is the male who controls the situation. The way that the women are allowed to feel and act depends entirely on how the male in that space feels on the inside and what the male thinks is appropriate. The male effectively controls the females.

Which is just how it's always been anyway isn't it?

That was to TheSmallestOneWasMadeline