Trans-identifying people seeking extra rights

And third spaces are supported by many, many posters on here. But we've been told many, many times by TRA's that third spaces are 'transphobic and othering'.

Yes. Making it perfectly clear that breaking women’s boundaries is not a side-effect but the whole point of demanding access to our single-sex spaces.

TheSmallestOneWasMadeline

How timely. Buck Angel post this tweet on the 18/10/22.

twitter.com/buckangel/status/1582475207133913088?s=46&t=PP8HlIJopvaQNJLaLhcTrw

Stop trying to use me as the "gotcha moment" I would NEVER use the women's room at this time in my life, I would rather piss in my pants than be disrespectful to women. Love, Buck

Of course, this brought out the disingenuous tweets from a chorus of transitioned males declaring they would be distressed in the male toilet and totally missed Buck’s point.

Which was pointed out pages back.

Many transitioned females have empathy for other females and understand the power of the changes their taking testosterone makes. They choose to not distress other females and will find another solution.

This empathy is exhibited by transitioned males toward females, but it is rarer. As per the replies of the tweet. Whereas Buck’s reply was all about the needs of other females, the transitioned males was all about them.

It becomes clearer and clearer the more these males communicate. Even when they understand that using the toilet and changing rooms cause distress they choose to continue.

We are constantly told by lobby groups that we should listen when people tell us who they are. And I think it is so true on many unintended levels.

Either way. Using Buck Angel is not a gotcha. But just imagine a world where not one male person over puberty used female single spaces out of respect, so female people would know that instinctively that a transitioned female was female. It might have helped in many cases.

However, there will always be those who will respond to both the male presentation of a female person (even those without testosterone) or a male presenting as a female with the sex cues that cannot be changed or disguised regardless.

It must be a person with a complete lack of empathy who assumes first that any female person, adult or child, who responds with distress at a male presenting female is doing so out of ‘bigotry’ and not from a place of extreme trauma.

Apologies I have just read back your last few posts and I do understand.

I thought you were making an argument that you are not, in favour of inclusion of men in women's spaces because trans men take testosterone.

Sorry again.

Seriously this doesn't even make sense.

Do you think trans women are female? Do you think trans men are male?

I need to understand your starting point here to even have this discussion with you.

Who said anything about wanting males in female spaces?

Stating that I don't want trans men in female only spaces means letting men in?

Again, it's the lack of nuance. "Oh you don't female trans men in female spaces, therefore you want all men in female spaces".

It's very clear that male looking people in women-only spaces should be a no-no. Otherwise (again loophole) natal men will come in and say "oh I'm actually a trans man".

I don't think you have read this thread.

It has been much more nuanced on the subject of women who identify as men than you are making out.

In any event it is a poor argument for the inclusion of males in women's safe spaces.

Great minds and all that.

But this is what happens when people make blanket statements, it allows no room for the grey areas. And the bathroom debate constantly revolves around each side looking for loopholes.

I don't consider wanting single sex spaces a loophole. Up till very recently single sex spaces were considered normal for obvious reasons.

Sorry Alison took too long to post that and you said it better!

people feel completely safe with a woman who is on male levels of testosterone?

Funnily enough there's a complete lack of female people on T rampaging around causing distress or harassment or trying to remove other people's rights and spaces.

Which would suggest it isn't the T at the root of the behaviour. How interesting.

I thought we looked at risk and there just isn't evidence of 'women who took testosterone rampaging across the land'. So even though it is higher it is still a minute amount compared to men.

I find it strange that in many threads people discuss the threat of men due to the existence of testosterone, which has obviously masculinising properties and leads to aggression etc, and this only gets worse with men doping and on extreme amounts of the hormone.

Yet people feel completely safe with a woman who is on male levels of testosterone? People are now negating any effect that that substance has on the body.

I listened to that particular Transparency podcast and the women make it clear how their behaviour, feelings and sex drive changed due to testosterone.

But this is what happens when people make blanket statements, it allows no room for the grey areas. And the bathroom debate constantly revolves around each side looking for loopholes.

Nicely said, Helle. And your willingness to be open to discussion and persuasion is appreciated TheSmallestOneWasMadeline.

Datun's post about halfway down the first page on that thread is an excellent summary of many of the terms and issues and I often direct people to read that first as a starting point.

Fair enough. Despite the fact that regular posters are so often accused of 'pile ons' and of being echo chambers etc, the reality is that we are very happy to have these discussions. I can only speak for myself in that having posters that come on with the intention to shame posters for having the discussion, or with the intention of simply goading, have no intention of engaging and therefore mostly we talk around them.

You say you are 'naive' but you still hung in for the discussion. So, I hope that you will stick around and read those discussions now understanding that many of us have been researching this for a long time. Some posters have been engaged from the start (not me, I was late to the discussion myself).

I'm fully convinced that most trans women just want to live their lives in peace and unclocked.

And you may be right, but not necessarily to the degree of 'most'. It might be more 'some'. However, it has become very clear that even by simply using pronouns now seem to have consequences because it continues to prop up the immersion of that gender identity and make the segregation needed for female's to have for their needs harder.

It is a very fine line of discussing individual needs with a sex category's collective needs. Activists need to keep the focus on the individuals because once the needs of female people are mentioned as a whole, that 'sympathy' for the individual seems to highlight many issues.

Thank you @Waitwhat23 . I will have a nosy later once my toddler has gone to bed and I have a g&t in hand, looks like I will need it.

I can't remember if this thread has been posted on this thread yet - it really is very useful - www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

You're where many of us started off. You come into this debate thinking 'live and let live, why can't we just be kind?', move onto 'hang on a minute, that doesn't seem fair' and then see how women are being vilified for simply asking questions about the removal of the single sex services and spaces and language to describe themselves.

Fair enough @nilsmousehammer .

Many here are LGBT+ people. I'm one.

The thing is whether you're an ally to supporting the diversity of people and the equality of their rights, or an ally to a political position which believes in the supremacy of some people's rights and interests to the detriment of others. The political LGBT+ lobby simply excludes those of us harmed by the pressing for the supremacism of male TQ+ people's interests and freedoms above others.

Hmm this thread is food for thought definitely. I dont come on this board much but having read some of the links and had a look at other threads I can see it's not as straight forward as I thought.

I've always considered myself an LGBT ally but I'll admit I dont have answers to some of the concerns raised on here. A shame because I'm fully convinced that most trans women just want to live their lives in peace and unclocked.

Thanks for engaging me in respectful discussion even when I've come across as a bit thick naive.

Indeed nilsmousehammer.

Wouldn't it be a lovely thing to be able to have full confidence that the person in that space with you could only be a female, because no male would transgress the boundaries?

What a world that would be, eh?

Although I'll add that's me stating my boundaries: I would be perfectly happy to share facilities with a TM. It is not for me to generalise and therefore say that I expect all females from all situations with all their own wide variety of female need to feel as I do, or judge the ones who don't.

I encountered a small man with a beard, alone, in a car park in a strange place early in the morning and responded warily as you do as a lone female in those circumstances from bitter bloody experience. The bearded person smiled, said hello - and it was immediately apparent they were a TM and my whole body relaxed. It was instinctive, it happened before any conscious thought took place. As soon as I saw them walking away I would also have known; the hip shape and movement was unmistakable, but they only needed to smile and speak. It wasn't relevant to know that they were trans apart from that their sex did make a difference in certain circumstances, such as being alone with them as a stranger in an isolated place.

I would have been perfectly happy to share a hospital room with them, complete with beard and any surgical/cosmetic adaptations, and that would not be an exception I made just for them because they were nice and I liked them. Same sex doesn't mean 'gender conforming' or 'feminine', it means female. That's the line other females need. How that female looks isn't relevant. The issues raised about 'well some women are now getting stroppy about butch presenting women' if they happen at all are not about females having boundaries about gendered behaviour from females, it's learned fear of male people trying to deceive them.

But as mentioned above: TM usually get this. There is awareness and reciprocation in care for others as well as requesting it. There is not the need to transgress other people's boundaries, nor the element among them seeking to transgress other people's boundaries for sexual motives. Basically they are female in all ways, nothing to do with how they choose to present or name themselves.

This Buck Angel thing is so silly. I’ve never seen a transman where I can’t see it once I’m told. all anyone would need to do if a trans man is scaring someone in a female space is say “This person is actually female.”

Trans people are a lot more common than they used to be. This means they don’t pass as well as they used to back when being trans was a rarity. People know the look now. Even Buck would likely get clocked fairly often these days. This is a fake problem which is becoming increasingly irrelevant. People know trans people exist, and don’t have any trouble accepting transmen are female.

Yes. Why shouldn't they?

All those men who proudly shout about being trans inclusive and fly their trans ally banner should actually put their money where their mouth is and promote, accept and welcome transwomen into their spaces, services etc., and treat them as part of the rich and varied tapestry of males. That is inclusion, now why won't they do that?