How much longer is this going to take?!

It is entirely possible to get a more than satisfactory orgasm from clitoral stimulation alone. That's how many women masturbate - not all, of course, and some use vibrators, which can produce sensations in both the clitoris and the vagina.

What?

I'm just an old fashioned type of woman but I was sure that it is my amazing clitoris that allows me to have orgasms no need to involve the vagina (though mine is real).

In any country.

Oh amazing that you’ve looked into it! This really should be talked about more. Especially when data from other countries also shows there’s no downward trend in youth suicides. Suicides are clearly not being prevented.

Do you know if the uptick in suicides subsequent to the trans trend becoming widespread also happened in other countries? Though of course, there could be a lot of possible reasons for that. I’d like to know if it can be sex disaggregated - if this upward trend in suicides is worse in girls than boys, I’d be very suspicious that this trend is playing a part.

I have brought this up before too. Puberty blockers have in no way solved an epidemic of suicide among gender confused children and adolescents. In any country.

I have never known a child or adolescent present to the emergency department or acute mental health service with the primary reason for their presentation being distress about puberty.

This discussion made me wonder if there’s evidence that the widespread administration of trans treatments in recent years has prevented any suicides.

So I looked it up. After a steady year on year decline from 1980-2017, suicides among young people in the UK began rising in 2018 and are now at the highest level they’ve been at for 30 years.

Obviously the pandemic must be a big contributor to that but note the rise began in 2018. This trend is definitely not preventing suicides. Perhaps the opposite.

You say inadequate, I think that if there was high long term success, they'd have collected that data. It isn't a coincidence that the data needed wasn't collected. It is because they know damn well it doesn't exist.

This is where GICs, the NHS/ government have been really inadequate in not doing rigorous follow up and good collection of long term data.

Absolutely.

This article might be interesting for those not familiar with the Branstrom study that erroneously concluded that there was a strong improvement in mental health after transition.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

This paper from the UK also discusses suicide rates

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

Preliminary data from a small ‘before and after’ pilot study of the use of puberty blockers at the Tavistock Centre in selected children found a reduction in body image problems in adolescents following a year of puberty suppression. However, positive effects were offset by increases in self-harm and suicidal thoughts.

I think, if I remember correctly, Marcus Evans is one of the clinicians that has maintained that even if some improvement is initially recorded, that other issues then can maintain that risk due to surgery results, the disappointment in the hormonal results and the realisation that transitioning was not actually 'the fix' for the issues that transitioners wanted improvement with.

Yes, these patients have some very poor mental health, however the rates don't seem to be higher for suicide or self harm than other groups.

Just in case readers cannot find content about the Dutch Protocol:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2121238

But there is also commentary from the authors of the Protocol about the lack of effectiveness in the current female cohort found on google too.

What's unclear is whether the suicide rate diminishes or increases after transition in the newer cohorts.

Yes I agree. Or stays the same. And to what extent transition is a satisfactory treatment in itself or whether even with that if additional support is required.

This is where GICs, the NHS/ government have been really inadequate in not doing rigorous follow up and good collection of long term data.

For those interested who are reading the links, here is another. Just released.

acpuk.org.uk/the-cass-review-and-its-implications-psychologically-informed-considerations-for-the-future/

This is in response to the interim Cass review. So, the Association of Clinical Psychologists UK has already acted in light of the interim report that I posted a link for a page ago.

Just for clarity for those who don't know. These Neo-vaginas are either created from penises turned inwards and tied in place in an artificial cavity created in the the male's body. Or they might be made from pieces of bowel or intestine. And reportedly retain the smell of that body part. Or another part of the body if those are not available.

Males who have had puberty blockers from such an early age have famously (because at least two mothers of different males have announced this at different times to the world) underdeveloped penises and not able to create a vagina of much length. Again, Bowers a surgeon who does these surgeries also confirmed this.

Another issue they have is hair growth inside that created approximation of a female body part.

Of course, there is no natural lubrication. And lubrication needs to be done very regularly. And artificially dilated for a long time to keep this site 'open'.

I am very keen to see from Freespirit how an orgasm happens in this artificially created site works.

For anyone interested in the long term health effects on the female body for using testosterone, look up the East German female athletes and the stories of the detransitioners.

Some of these detransitioners only took Testosterone for a short time and have not only the effects they desired which are not reversible (whereas more of the effects on males from taking oestrogen are!) such as facial hair and voice changes, there is the baldness, there are bladder issues and sexual performance issues.

Most importantly there are the long term effects of atrophy to ovaries and vaginas etc. And the still being researched potential of early onset dementia the earlier you have a hysterectomy.

And then there is the side effects long term of pain and lack of movement after those double mastectomies.

Plus the very poor outcome rate for phalloplasty surgery.

All this, and we also hear too many stories (even from transitioners) that there is intense pressure on these females to not publicly discuss their health issues. That to do so causes distress to others. Some transitioned females have reported being ostracised for merely asking if others have had issues.

So, how wonderful that you know all about Stone there freespirit, have you ever read about just how much more risky transitioning is to the female body? And did you ever wonder what feminists were actually discussing when they were raising alarms about just how much more risky these transitions are and the growth of detransitioners?

Or have you ignored the discussion for some reason?

Stone started to received puberty blockers at 10 and took them for around five years before taking Estrogen.

Stone is male. You seem to be very focused on males and making sure they are centred in your feminism. But, you will find the overwhelming number of posters on this board will centre females in their activism.

For good reason.

The health risks for females is much higher than for males to transition. Firstly, there are risks associated with puberty blockers. Or, freespirit have you missed the backtracking that has been happening for major health organisations around the world. They are saying clearly that puberty blockers are NOT reversible and can be very harmful.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/#S5title

This 2019 study showed that female transitioners who took PBs did not ever recover their bone density as they discuss in the section on puberty blockers.

However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully Bmake up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline (aBMD Z-score − 0.33 ± 1.12 and BMAD Z-score average − 0.033 ± 0.95), despitea small increase in absolute aBMD. One transman at age 22 had a Z-score of < −2.0.

There was a series done in Sweden that followed the life of transitioners. One was Leo. A female who suffered significant skeletal damage due to use of puberty blockers.

www.svtplay.se/video/33358590/uppdrag-granskning/mission-investigate-trans-children-avsnitt-1?id=jp9dBRA

Here is some information about the documentaries in case you don't want to watch.

Trusting the advice of the health service, Leo’s parents agreed to start her on puberty blockers at 11 years old. After a period of euphoria following the beginning of the treatment, Leo’s mental health deteriorated, and she became suicidal. In spite of sharing their growing doubts, anxiety, and distress with the healthcare providers, Leo’s parents were continually told that things would get better. Leo and her parents were instead praised and reinforced for being “brave.”

The exposé follows Leo’s heartbreaking degradation. Her back begins to hurt constantly, but there is no follow-up from the health service, and treatment with puberty blockers continues. Finally, tests and images confirm the worst fears.
Sweden’s head of pediatric endocrinology (who had no involvement in Leo’s treatment) reviewed her test results and concluded that she had spinal fractures and two malformed vertebrae – highly likely as a result of the puberty blockers that were nonetheless continued for three more months after the damage was diagnosed.

Puberty blockers stop the body’s growth and bone mineralization, but these risks were never adequately described to the parents. Leo’s mother calls it “a healthy skeleton that was destroyed” by experimental medicine. (For more information on puberty blockers and their side effects, please refer to Stats for Gender, Sweden’s evidence review, and the UK National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) systematic evidence review.)

From: genspect.org/swedish-documentary-stopping-the-trans-train/

Then there is this from the FDA July 1, 2022:

publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/20636/Risk-of-pseudotumor-cerebri-added-to-labeling-for?autologincheck=redirected

The link requires a log in but the FDA identified six cases that supported a plausible association between GnRH agonist use and pseudotumor cerebri. All subjects were females aged between 5 and 12 years. Five were undergoing treatment for central precocious puberty and one for ‘transgender care’. The onset of pseudotumor cerebri symptoms ranged from just three to 240 days after the start of their GnRH agonist treatment.

So, wonderful to hear that you are so up to date with Stone's transition. However, you seem to be missing something. And that is the bulk of the current transitioning youth cohort is female. Not male. And females have a much greater degree of risk to the drugs used for transitioning.

If you are at all interested, just Google Lupron and class action lawsuit.

www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

and

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

and

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25 year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26 year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

This is just a sample.

This is just puberty blockers and not even testosterone.

I don’t think people are told they are ‘actually becoming the opposite sex’, not in nhs gender identity clinics.

Is it worth reading around the subject before you make these sweeping statements at all?

Try the 'break it down for me' thread available for anyone who isn't up to speed on the whole shabboodle.

To be honest, FieldofGreyCorn, I agree with you on most of that. What's unclear is whether the suicide rate diminishes or increases after transition in the newer cohorts.

Suicide rates in autistic and otherwise neurodiverse youngsters are higher than average, and I think it's well established that there is a high overlap.

"Consequences of treatment" (ie infertility) could only be viewed as acceptable in the case of the trans youngster if we buy into the idea that without it they will kill themselves without it.
And do the young people making the choices have a real understanding of what they are giving up? I don't think so, given the lies told about them actually becoming the opposite sex.

’trans youngster’ I would agree in the vast majority of cases. There is a point during later adolescence when identity formation becomes more stable and cross sex hormones can be considered. It’s a clinical decision. Lots of factors.

I don’t think people are told they are ‘actually becoming the opposite sex’, not in nhs gender identity clinics. A realistic view of what can be changed. Living as much as possible as that sex (or gender) day to day. A process to alleviate distress for which there’s no other evidence base treatment.

With regards to suicide risk I’m sure you’re aware that the rate of suicidal behaviour and completed suicide for trans people is considerably higher than baseline population. (Similar to other severe mental illness perhaps but high nonetheless).

Omfg you are off your head

indeed.

I suggest that instead of telling posters on this board all about just how much you seem to know about trans people and children, you might take some time to read the interim Cass report.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

I think that some people who post on this board are very familiar with young people who are trans. You seem to not understand that this is a site called 'Mumsnet' and you are on the board created to discuss 'Sex and Gender'. And that many regular posters here have read deeply about these issue because we have children and teenagers who are impacted the medicalisation of children and young people and by the developments around 'gender' being prioritised above sex where sex matters. ( You know.... you keep saying 'you lot, or is it you guys, need to get to know trans people? Well, guess what? WE DO! and some very well indeed! )

But do crack on. Because as we are very used to posters who have taken the approach that you have we have learned that only way to fight the misinformation being posted and the emotional manipulation attempts with links to facts, studies and papers and let readers make up their own minds.

In essence, your posts create threads that become much more informative to readers and we make it easy for them to 'educate' themselves as you seem to have told people to do.

So, thank you.

I think my last post covered the 'hyperbolic' 'sterilisation' aspect. But you are right, I just did the males. I am happy to find the Scandanavian fertility doctor who is now raising the alarm about the number of females who are coming to the clinic after detransitioning to work out why they cannot conceive. Seems no one told them that taking testosterone may do that.

Or anyone who knows as many trans people as you declare you know would also understand how female reproductive organs tend to atrophy with testosterone treatment. I mean, that is quite well documented. I am surprised you don't know about it.

And only a small number will detransition?

Do you have any numbers for this? Any at all? Because the NHS was unable to produce anything. Just saying 'only a "very" small number will detransition is actually saying, I am going to repeat trope from groups heavily invested in making sure that detransitioners are never counted.

How weird you have also been very vocal on a thread discussing 'accountability'! Surely any group wanting the very best standard of care for patients in such distress would want to be able to have full accountability that the treatments are working?

How many detransitioners are an acceptable level of 'collateral' to ensure others get the treatment they want?

Here we go, this one from one GP surgery who decided to do it's own audit in 2020 on the quality of care that their patients were receiving :

www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121/htm

-the rate of detransition amongst those who had received at least hormones was 9.8%

-the number of patients with underlying mental health issues. And how they are being completely let down by affirming only treatment.

-The number of visits before receiving hormones was 2.7 appointments.

-67 patients average age 27.8 years -range was 12- 54
-42 females, 22 males, four NB (3 f / 1 m)
-Female mean age is 18 years, male 23 years.
-Out of the 67, only 9 (13%) had NO mental health diagnosis. 10 (15%) had diagnosed ASD, 4 with ADHD (6%), 3 (4%) with OCD, 1 with Bipolar, 7 (10%) with a Personality Disorder. 13 (19%) had documented childhood abuse, neglect or violence.

2.7 appointments? Is this considered to be the very best that we can do?

However, that 9.8% rate actually reflects the rates from this study. And this study was not about detransitioning and is actually about measuring success. So again, not a 'biased' study but one that inadvertantly has some numbers that seem to have not been mentioned by anyone that I can see.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

Both of this studies will not reflect the 'bulge' of patients who have been mostly young female patients who have registered at gender clinics from around 2016.
In the UK and around the world. Those patients have not yet been included in any studies that have not been biased.

If we take the newer figure of 9.8% from that southern England GP audit, are you perfectly happy that 1 in every 10 transitioner will experience regret? What about if the numbers are much higher now as many of us who have read as many of the reports, papers and studies that we can find suspect?

That expectation is due to the fact that so many female transitioners have been poorly supported by the health services that were using treatments that were developed for young MALES and neglecting co-morbities.

And I do encourage you to use Google as you say to read about what even the authors of the Dutch Protocol say.

Omfg you are off your head yes she will have sexual functioning you do know they can have orgasms with their vaginas don’t you?

I beg your pardon? Am I correct in thinking you have just said that males who have 'Neo-vaginas' will 'orgasm' in that neo-vagina?

Who told you that? And tell us, what muscle and muscle control has a Neo-vagina have?

And I am going to call your bluff on this and ask for a link to evidence from a study or a paper from a gender clinician.

Please stop spreading such false and very harmful information.

Someone else posted what Marci Bowers said, here is Marci Bowers saying it.

twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1521692875242688512?s=20&t=6K0xby7vIr--oBII-gJRIw

By the way, Bowers is a transitioned male gender clinician who was President Elect of the WPATH and turns male penises into neo-vaginas! We are not making this shit up. OR are you going to try and tell us that Bowers is not an expert?

She can adopt if that’s what she wants that’s not the be all of life sorry it’s not they do counselling with chikdren it’s called psychotherapy Google it you need to talk to trans people as you are very misinformed

Goodness. You really are very prejudiced about the people who post on this board. I believe I pointed out before that many people on this board have trans people in their everyday lives. And quite a few have children who are identified as trans in their lives, one way or another.

It is you giving false information in your posts. You have been caught out more than once.

YOU need to talk to parents of children who are trans and detransitioners and listen to just how much 'psychotherapy' they are getting. I am very happy to start posting the papers that are describing how inadequate the amount of therapy these young people are getting, PLUS how difficult it is to now provide even recommendations due to the children and young people being coached by others in just what to say to 'get the treatment'. It has been written about by clinicians. In fact, since you keep mentioning Georgie Stone, who is Australian, several Australian clinicians have written about it.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

I am happy to link up more. There is plenty of information to read linked in the Break it Down thread.

It seems it is YOU who is 'very misinformed'.

Even the authors of the famed 'Dutch Protocol' treatment have stated that these young patients today are NOT getting the recommended mental health treatment.

Do you only take your information from biased sources?

I am actually laughing at your constant stream of prejudiced posts that attempt to portray yourself as having some kind of inside knowledge on trans people, yet you do not seem to have a grasp on the current facts being discussed on these threads at all.

This is one of the reasons why I home educate, schools are largely indoctrination camps now.

I think we might mean different things by 'engaging with other peoples [sic] opinions'. For me, engaging with other people's opinions involves reasoned scrutiny of their reasons for holding the opinions they do. For you, it seems to mean abusing people for the opinions they hold while misconstruing what they say.

Do you agree with this characterisation? Or do you think you are engaging in reasoned discussions of others' opinions on this thread?

Well, I wonder. All these trans people in the real world. They can't be trans in the sense of men who change into women or women who change into men can they? - Because there are no men who change into women or women who change into men, nor have there ever been. (Or do you disagree?)

... So these trans people in the real world must be trans in some other sense. (As I think I may have pointed out in an earlier post.) That's OK; that's what gender clinics etc. are for, hmm?

Btw, having demonstrated your own semi-literacy in several posts, it really ill behoves you then to castigate something you fail to understand as 'word salad'. Cuts no ice, we might say.

(On the other hand, 'cult', I like, and would enjoy even more were you aware of the irony.)

Keep trying!