More empathy for 'transmen' than 'transwomen'?

You talk about having sympathy or not having sympathy and I can't know your mind; but I think threat would be a commonplace reason for your reaction. A girl who identifies as a man is a whole lot less likely to be a sexual threat to your daughter than a boy who identifies as a girl. Especially as an older one as you say is the case here hanging out with a younger (presumably teenage) girl.

And I don't think viewing it in terms of threat is worse than simply not feeling a need to include in your sympathies. I actually think it's better. There are lots of "transgirls" who aren't being malicious they've simply been presented an option they are told explains their difficulties / will make life suddenly better. But the fact is that doesn't change male sex drive or sex-based characteristics. The only point I'd disagree with NashvilleQueen's excellent post on is about the majority of transgirls being gay. It's common in young girls who identify as trans but it's not the impression I have had and even if it is over 50%, there's a very non-significant percentage that are straight. An adolescent boy is a loaded gun (source: was one). Combine that with a socially opened railroad right through traditional protections on an over-intruding boy via being trans and I'd say your reaction is justified purely on those grounds. It doesn't need to be about loyalty or who qualifies for sympathy or not.

I fully agree with you OP. There have been studies (I forget which 🤦‍♀️!) that reveal that a lot of men’s transition is based on fetishising women (AGP) etc and women to men is because they are trying to escape the heavy societal pressures of being a woman. I can’t remember where I read it (might have been Graham Linehan) but the writer was reviewing extracts of trans memoirs and noticed that a lot of MTF mentioned their excitement at dressing like a woman and FTM described how they hated their body etc. I just find it deeply depressing when I see so many girls wanting to identify out of their sex. Hadley Freeman is writing a book on it (published next summer) about trans being the new anorexia for teen girls. (Sorry for the ramble!)

I agree I also have sympathy for boys and young men who have been drawn into this at a young age for similar reasons - discomfort with their changing body and/or being gay or autistic for example.

I am going to generalise massively here and there are, of course, outliers for every category but my perception is as follows:

The majority of transmen are adolescent/young girls who either feel uncomfortable with their chanting body or don't favour typically 'feminine' traits or interests and so assume they're actually boys. Some are gay some aren't. Many will 'detransition' in adulthood (whether or not they have had meds or surgery.

The majority of young transwomen are gay but for whatever reason feel uncomfortable with their sexuality/coming out and so the notion of gender dysphoria is more attractive. They prefer female company and traditional female interests but are probably more likely sexually attracted to males.

With adolescent trans people it feels entirely about identity and not feeling like they fit in anywhere. The process of transitioning is about making them feel their authentic selves. I'm afraid that I find a lot of older transitioners (overwhelmingly male) to be sexually motivated. A kink rather than a true sense of identity. Again it's a generalisation but it's the strong sense I get.

For me the dividing line around empathy and concern is age and not sex.

I'm empathetic and concerned about all children male or female struggling with identity and being sold a lie that there's a simple solution, they can change sex, and the world will play along with this illusion.

It's cruelty to already vulnerable children.
Girls and boys differ in why they may get drawn into this lie but I empathise with them all because they're children.

Adults who choose this, male or female are of no concern to me in terms of requiring my empathy. I just want to ensure we can continue to identify who is male and protect females.

I'm finding the use of transmen on here to refer to children very jarring. We need to be clear in our language when we are discussing children vs adults.

I feel that way too. But it's not illogical. There isn't that autogynophelia element to it. It's not tried on and taken off. They weren't raised with the expectation that women bend with the wind to accommodate them.

It does seem like a different thing.

I also think it’s natural for older women to feel protective towards girls and young women, as well as sometimes frustrated about things like liberal feminist ideas and internalised misogyny, even though most of us have been there. Not so much towards older, fetishist or at the very least misogynist men, who think a few sexist stereotypes make them women.

the only older (40s) trans man I know has a catalogue of MH issues and long history of abuse and has always coped by seeking new identities and diagnoses. It is clear to me why this opportunity for another new identity appealed. As an adult I accept it’s their choice but I do worry about the way it sets up a support group and endless praise that will be whisked away if you change your mind, so you get “locked in”. So I am worried that despite being older, they could go through surgery and hormone changes and then regret them.

I feel empathy for any reasonable (ie not aggressive, etc) trans person. I don’t feel especially different about trans men. In fact, I suppose I sometimes feel irked, depending on the person, eg some of the more famous trans men really wind me up because they’re crapping on their fellow females and often seem motivated by a kind of internal misogyny.

The younger trans men in their teens and early 20s just make me sad. I was served by one in a cafe the other day. Lovely person, but……not sure how to phrase this…..they didn’t seem to be any different from any other female person of the same age, except their name badge proclaiming their male name and pronouns. I found it very sad, and wished I could tell them they could be/do all they wanted to be without ‘changing sex’. I’d bet money on the fact they were same-sex attracted, and I wanted to reassure them it was ok, and that the feelings they had were normal and would pass. I did wonder whether they were questioning their ‘transness’ too as the chat we had was very much ‘girly’.

So, why are so many girls feeling like this? Almost like it’s shameful and inferior to be a girl.

@WarriorN "There's also a couple of young female detransitioners who've described getting lost in manga gay porn being the trigger to want to be male."

I think that may be the route for many, especially through fandom and fanfiction, and would like to see it analysed more.

yup I agree - I once described to to a transman friend as like : do I think you're damaged, sure. I am too. I recognise and empathise with your wounds because I recognise that you've been hurt by the same sticks that were used to beat me.

So being trans clearly isn't the same and there's more to it.

Except so many detransitioners now say "I wasn't a boy, I just didn't want to be a girl/" "I am a woman, I just felt like I wasn't good enough/hated my body/didn't realise I could be a woman in my own way." I have seen detransitioners say that when they discovered feminist viewpoints that explained you didn't have to be feminine and "girly" to be a woman, they realised they could reconcile to being a woman after all - it was the relentless stereotypes and expectations that made them feel they weren't a girl, along with being told that "identifying" as a man and "changing sex" via hormones and surgery is an option. But these things will never actually make your sex change. I'm sorry for trans men - and we are now seeing more and more of them - who are waking up to the fact that they are not and never will be men, and they've harmed their bodies into the bargain. And I suspect that there are also others who feel similar but don't dare to admit it because there's so much hate and ostracism for those who do detransition.

I think the best we can say is that for some people, transitioning - imperfect and incomplete as it is - is their best option but we know that for swathes of people it is not. So how can you know that "being trans" is some other category when it so often turns out to be those same girls and women, who later realise they just didn't fit in and were actually just gay, tomboys, etc?

The transmen i know personally are all still teenagers. I knew them as young girls.

The transwomen and nonbinary people i know are adults of 30-50.

Yes I feel more concern for the transmen. The ones I know have been bullied and excluded by girls at school. One has just been diagnosed autistic, two have 'perfect' older sisters.

There are definitely issues in female culture for teenagers. Transitioning offers a (genuine) coping strategy away from that.

Neither do I as I'm not, but I can see outside of me and know not everyone is the same.I was a tomboy when growing up too, absolutely hated anything "girly" but knew I always was one.So being trans clearly isn't the same and there's more to it.

"I can see outside of me and know not everyone is the same"... and then generalising the experiences of all GNC girls from your personal narrative, how ridiculously ironic! That's very nice that you always knew you were a girl, but you shouldn't project on to others. Plenty of women who were GNC are fully aware they would have been caught up in the trans wave if they'd been exposed to the kind of propaganda young girls are exposed to now, and they're glad they escaped.

So true faffertea. So many of us could have been pushed or tempted down this route if we were young now. I know what it’s like to not fit in as a girl/woman, to wish I was a boy and to hate my body when going through puberty - so many of us do especially the tomboys, feminists and lesbians. But we had reality on our side - I learned to be my own kind of woman because I knew I wasn’t a boy and so had to accept that. Girls and young women have been let down by lies and ideology that are ending up with a lot of them devastated and regretful, we know this. It’s not patronising to be upset to see that happening to the next generation of women like us.

As a general rule it’s easier to empathise with people like ourselves. Many women see themselves in the young trans men taking hormones, getting mastectomies, hating their bodies. We know what it’s like to hate our bodies and we know the influence society plays in us feeling like that.

It’s not patronising or pitying. For some trans men it may seem like women projecting their own experiences onto them and they don’t feel or recognise the experiences of these women.

But tell me then why so many girls and young women are identifying as trans? A 4000% increase in referrals.

Don’t forget many of us here have children identifying as trans or work with or care for children who do. We’re seeing what’s happening in real time, with our own eyes.

The OP is talking about her daughter's friend. From the context both the dd and her friend appear to be still at school - ie children. Most of us are mothers with children, many of whom are girls struggling with the influence of the trans ideology. Many of our dc have friends who identify as trans. Look at the referrals to GIDS: overwhelmingly female children.

I heard another potential stimulus recently. It is the argument that masculinity is described as toxic so often, that sensitive boys (and there are many) not wanting to become part of that ilk, instead choose to identify with the oppressed rather than become the oppressor. It made sense to me. When talking about sensitive males. It points again to the completely irresponsible lack of guideance by schools and educators. In short, the stereotypes are doing the educating.

I agree with this. Obviously homophobia has a part to play.

There's also a couple of young female detransitioners who've described getting lost in manga gay porn being the trigger to want to be male.

Was it Dr Em who wrote a piece evaluating porn hub porn; gay sex was more loving, including kissing, and all the hetero categories were incredibly dehumanising for the women, violent, abusive and anal.

It's not binary or straightforward. But the majority seems to be as the OP described.

Where did scaryfaces mention children?!
They were talking about trans men, who are usually patronised and infantalised.
Nobody even mentioned children so don't know why you're suddenly trying to change the subject to safeguarding children
We're talking about trans men.

No, ScaryFaces, adult women can do what they like to their bodies, can make their own choices and accept the consequences.

Children need to be protected. Vulnerable people need to be protected.

Do you think safeguarding is patronising?

you have no idea what it's like to be trans

Sweeping statement. What makes you so sure?

In the 60s/70s/80s a tomboy was accepted as a tomboy, a geek was accepted as a geek, a socially awkward girl was accepted as a socially awkward girl. She might have been teased or told off for it, but nobody ever told her she was actually a boy and that if she bound her breasts/took cross-sex hormones/had surgery then all her problems would go away. So we grew up, adopted or rejected feminine stereotypes, became engineers/camera operators/soldiers/plumbers/whatever, were diagnosed with ASD as adults.

But if we were children today...

I do have more empathy with trans men on one level, in that I share femaleness with them, and the structural and personal disadvantages of being female. When a female transitions, she keeps her lack of power, on the whole, just as a male keeps his power relative to females. So transitioning cannot usually help a female gain an advantage in sport, in the workplace etc and is unlikely to be done to enable sex crimes as they are rare in females. Therefore I think female transitioners are more likely to have genuine, sincerely felt motives. In fact I think we can clearly decide that from statistics alone. Women are not transitioning en masse immediately after being charged with crimes.

however I also feel annoyance with them (and more particularly women who identify as non-binary) for thinking they can abandon their sex and pretend they’re not female like me. They’ll always have my solidarity as a female, but I won’t have theirs as they’ve decided they’re not. Of course they don’t owe me anything but it’s frustrating. Because the reality is their femaleness with continue to disadvantage them.

lastly I am not wary of a female and I am wary of males, especially males who want into women’s spaces and think they can appropriate my sexed reality - for good, well-documented, factual reasons, not prejudice. So yes of course I feel warmer towards a TM than a TW.

The worst thing you can do in this debate is to treat it as black and white.

This whole debate is focused around wordings and definitions and the seeking of loopholes. This way of thinking makes a lot of sense when you realise the high amounts of autistic individuals involved.

There are some trans men who are heterosexual girls who want to escape from a female future, there are some trans men who are lesbians being persuaded that they are trans, there are trans women who are homosexual men being persuaded to be trans, there are trans woman who are men with a fetish (some know it is, others don't) and there are some trans women who aren't trans but abuse self-ID for various purposes.