Why do people think TW dominate the 'discussion'?

My message was deleted thats all you need to know. I said nothing controversial. Free Speech is dead.

I think for two reasons:

1. Transmen aren't causing much trouble. They're not disrupting sports, raping women in prison, bypassing traditional cultural safeguards or much of anything else. They don't even put themselves forward into the media spotlight so much because they're typically motivated less by a desire to be validated as a man so much as they were uncomfortable with what they were told being woman had to mean.
2. The translobby want to present the best possible view on their movement and a young woman who has been convinced to cut off her breasts or has half a moustache is a lot more likely to horrify to most than "stunning and brave" drag queens having fun. So they're not promoted to the media so much.

Well I’ve just had my thread on Zara advertising women’s clothing in the women’s section by a man deleted, as it’s “not in the spirit of the site” so mumsnet also seem to be on the bandwagon too.

I do wonder what many trans people make of all of this. Am sure opinions are massively varied. The narrative is driven by TRA though and they certainly have agenda. I worry about the backlash.

It's a man's thing 🤷‍♀️
TWAM

Mansplaining trigger warning.

“There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women."

Women are overworked, underappreciated and underpaid in our society. As soon as they make up the majority of an workforce, the pay and conditions drop to recognise the fact that statistically, they are more likely to take career breaks and be grateful to pick up 40% of the pay for a three-day week. This is beginning to happen in medicine, law and other professions as the women become the majority within cohorts at university.

So, if a man makes a better surgeon or pilot than a woman, it surely follows that rather than stumbling through training bras, teenage grooming disasters, those shoes that you loved but never went with that dress and a million other things that you encountered growing into womanhood ... Imagine how much better a woman you'd be today, going straight into patent Manolos, primped, preened and socially welcomed as an election candidate in a major city for example.

This.

Also, shades of SG. If you let yourself actually think about what you've done you'd scream forever. Easier to co-opt more people into the same nightmare and claim solidarity than to look in the mirror.

Sorry but the drive to eliminate the use of the word woman in anything to do with female health matters is driven by males who identify as women. It was transwomen objecting to pussy hats and discussion of female health issues during the now so called Women's Marches which started it all off.

I was going to say that what really pissed me off was after the overturning of Row Vs Wade, it seemed to be TW who were the most up in arms about the use of the word 'women' when it came to abortions, I felt like I saw less objection to the use of the word by TM.

A massive, historical, devastating blow to the freedom of women and yet we were still talking about men.

We are not allowed to talk about anything to do with women unless the word women could possibly mean TW too.

And of course, the erosion of womens language, whoever it's instigated by, is generally 'good' from a TW perspective and bad for women. Notable also that there aren't many similar changes in mens terminology, and more... see also

What male only spaces are trans men fighting for the right to access? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4654836-what-male-only-spaces-are-trans-men-fighting-for-the-right-to-access

No links to hand... over the last few years when there have been various reports about eg period products making their wording 'inclusive' it's often supposedly at the behest of TM or NB females. And then of course there's 'seahorse' Freddie.

Not all of it, of course, I said 'some'.

It's almost a running joke where someone has a list of murdered women in the last year and someone asks why they haven't included any transwomen. (Cos none were murdered - murder rate is like one every 5-10 years in the UK? And almost never related to being trans.)

Or places like Scotland doing "Trans Day of Remembrance" when no trans person has been murdered in Scotland ever, as far as I know.

Rose of Dawn (transwoman YouTuber) has done a couple of good video rants about this, going into some stats:

Thank you, NecessaryScene and TastefulRainbowUnicorn.

They can't shake the male privilege they grew up with.

Transgenderism is about codifying gender rules.
Gender rules conflict with other rules and rights.
Not caring about that conflict is how men are socialised to behave, and women are socialised to support them.

Feminists make an active effort to unlearn gender socialisation. Its why feminism is hated.

Cognitive dissonance. The transwomen shouting the loudest have based their entire new personality, their social life, and usually their professional/financial life too, on the premise that they are ‘brave’, ‘special’ and, in the words of the globe theatre, “divine”.

Anyone who undermines that view (eg by hinting that donning a frock and lipstick does not mean you understand what women go through) is an enemy whom transwomen will attack relentlessly, because the transwoman self-concept does not allow for debate. If transwomen aren’t women, then they aren’t brave/ stunning/ special ‘women’, but instead they’re just people, doing their thing, just like everyone else, no better than anyone else… And their self-concept (and finances) cannot allow that.

Transmen, on the other hand, are usually not running towards, they’re running away. They aren’t seeking access to kiddie storytime or attention or demanding validation. They’re seeking to escape the male gaze and they are usually quite happy keeping their heads down.

Ahh Necessary I didn’t see your comment, could have saved myself some typing!

I genuinely think it was mostly made up. Like completely made up out of whole cloth. People were afraid to question it! Some of it was from ridiculous sources - like there was a study of murdered transwomen that found they were mostly under 40 when they were murdered and for a while TRAs went around saying that transwomen have an average life expectancy of 37! I haven’t seen that one in a while actually. They must have started getting pushback.

There was one recent ”study” from the Williams Institute, trying to prop up the knackered old myth, they might cite that if you press them. Oddly enough the citation TRAs offer goes to a press release summarising their “findings”, asking you to email the author if you want to know more, but someone here found the original analysis. Seemed like they were trying quite hard to bury it, for good reasons. It was unbelievably bad.

I don’t have the link to the MN thread but if you can find it I think it was quite good; IIRC some idjit was posting all the TRAs’ best “evidence” so a lot of it was dismantled in one place. I can’t think of any useful search terms other than “Williams Institute” though!

So where does this stuff come from about 'most oppressed/vulnerable group'?

Some people said it and other people repeated it.

A long time ago they used to justify it with some "stats", but they've stopped doing that because they feel it would be counterproductive to get people to look at them. Enough people are paying attention, and they've got enough people who will just repeat it without thinking. So now it's just a meme.

The things that used to be used to justify it were things like the claimed "life expectancy" of transwomen being 35 or so, combined with a high homicide rate.

Now, most dead transwomen, by absolute numbers, seem to be in the sex trade in South America. Which is very dangerous for either sex. So what you're seeing is figures massively skewed by that, if not outright cherry-picked. Transwomen computer programmers aren't at risk.

And on top of that the "life expectancy" of ~35 is a distortion from those figures - it's actually the average age of transwomen murder victims. And actually, that's pretty much the average age of ANY murder victim. Or indeed the average age of anyone, really. It's the case of the number coming detached from its meaning.

See also ~40% of trans people "committing suicide". No, that's 40% of people in a self-selecting survey said they'd at some point thought about suicide. And it may even have been adults - I'm not sure. Suicide is certainly vanishingly rare among children, so applying that to children is probably a double stretch. I believe GIDS was asked about this, and they were aware of 1 (or 2?) suicides among patients they had treated ever.

Thank you. What I really mean is, people I know who buy into it will refer to the 'figures' about oppression/violence. And I think I've read Stonewall figures before claiming 'most oppressed' etc.
I'd just like to know where these 'stats' come from – and how to refute them!

So where does this stuff come from about 'most oppressed/vulnerable group'?

I’ll be vague because I’d definitely be deleted if I was straightforward.

I think that there are a lot of benefits for some kinds of people in perceived as vulnerable. I think that cross-dressers were generally not perceived that way and that “transgender” males being seen as vulnerable did a lot to erase cultural memories of cross-dressers. Also I think that a group that is or once was defined by having a mental health condition (dysphoria) actually is vulnerable in some ways, although not in ways that indicate “affirming” them is a good move.

So where does this stuff come from about 'most oppressed/vulnerable group'? (I mean the stuff that's been circulating since before the latest hate crime conversation and figures).
TWAW types I know absolutely believe the most oppressed line.

I agree with a lot of the above - whether an individual man is consciously aware of it or not growing up as a male posits you at the centre of things - words like mankind, chairman etc. A film with 4 male main characters is seen as a film about people, one with 4 female main characters is seen as a film about women.

Whereas growing up as a woman I think you’re more aware of your ‘otherness’ and the fact you’re not always put front and centre. And to some extent you learn to live with that.

And so when a man decides he’s a woman he’s bringing a whole set of values, baggage and entitlement that the average woman who decides she is a man simply won’t have.

Which is partly why I think the idea that someone can change gender is ultimately flawed - as we are all massively shaped by our upbringing and you can’t suddenly ‘switch’ to have had a different upbringing to the one you have actually had.