What male only spaces are trans men fighting for the right to access?

There's an "Amsterdam style leather bar" near me. Obv is a v niche space. Historically many gay male friends were turned away cos they weren't the right kind of bear.

In more recent years there has been a drive to be inclusive of trans men in these spaces (!) The club's response is to put trans men are welcome on the flyers/website etc but host nights that demand genital nudity. So pretty much a case of yeah you are allowed into this cruising space and potentially hook up with other trans men but you will be grey rocked by all the cocks and if humiliation ain't your bag...

www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/

“I understand that the gentleman was male however his physical gender was different”

Physical gender. Right you are.

yeah I remember it too made the papers
transman was thrown out of gay men's sauna - in London story was in the pink news I think although possibly elsewhere too can't remember the year but it was a little while back

Yes, Buck talked about it in an interview. Apparently when getting started in the porn industry, no one knew who would want to watch a Buck Angel film. SO they made one with men and women, one with just women, and one with just men.

The latter took off and sold like hotcakes in the gay community and that continued to be the demographic interested in that kind of porn.

Yes a lot of this push to remove the word woman eg birthing person etc. is coming from trans men or non binary bio females.

All the examples I know of where transmen have fought for access to male spaces have already been mentioned in this thread.
Online I see them active in the linguistic erasure of all words referring to people of the female sex (for 'inclusion' reasons), but I have never seen them try to do the same to language referring to people of the male sex (where 'inclusion' doesn't matter).
Which is thought-provoking. Indeed, almost all groups of trans people seem to unite in the desire to erase the female body but only the female body, and that's why I believe this movement to be built on a strong foundation of misogyny.

This.

Because transmen are women. They have been socialised as girls, to not push in, not make waves, not to demand, to be rude. Men, on the other hand, have been socialised to do all those things.
That's why there is such a difference. Transwomen have male entitlement.

Trans men tend to pass better so no-one notices the loos etc, but they often aren't fighting to be in men's spaces because they don't want to be in them. TM know they are safer on women's sports teams or in women's prisons.

I had this discussion with a gay male friend who runs tantric workshops. These are single sex, gay men only because he says they sometimes involve nudity. When I asked how he dealt with the issue of a TM wanting to join and identifying as a gay man, he said it didn't ever come up, and as gay men they didn't feel the trans issue was anything to do with them. He appreciated the issue of trans women wanting to be in women's spaces but from his point of view it was not something that concerned them as gay men. It was fascinating.

Nobody in Ireland is becoming a priest anyway

I understand that a trans man can't inherit if the inheritance is due to go to the first born son (the natal son wins out). This hasn't been challenged in court yet as there aren't enough young trans aristocrats knocking around.

😂😂😂

A pair of transmen sat in the men's section of an orthodox synagogue I sometimes attend. They basically tricked the very sheltered and trusting Ultra-orthodox rabbi into shaking their hands (contact between adult males and females outside immediate family in Ultra-orthodox communities is forbidden). I have my own views about Orthodox sex/gender roles but their conduct infuriated me. Whatever you believe about gender, you don't con a strictly orthodox man into thinking you're male, making him break a commandment that he lives his life by, just for your own validations

Not sure about Christianity but on the documentary My Transsexual Summer there was a TM training to become a rabbi.

Gay cubs, that seems to bother some. Though maybe not all, after all Buck Angel's main fanbase is gay men Really, @MangyInseam? That raised my eyebrows.

I know of a couple of TM who participate in the gay fetish scene in London. I couldn't work out why they were tolerated and doubted that the gay men would feel coerced into #bekind in their own saunas and clubs.

The TM are being fetished and they believe that they are being accepted and validated, are't they? They are the submissive because they can't be anything else, no man would be into being dominated by a female - unless he has a humiliation fetish. Which explains sex with a group of men watching - because if he is being a bottom to a female and being observed by dominating men he gets off on the humiliation.

I wish I'd had my coffee and gone for a walk this morning like I intended, but I got sucked into MN and now I can't even type "sucked into" without mental images that are unrelated to my very nice coffee that I was enjoying.

Men are weird. And I say that as a straight woman.

A few years ago, we had a discussion about a trans man being kicked out of a sauna. It might have been the case linked to above, in fact it probably was. (www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/)

I remember that there was a gay man who felt very strongly that trans men should not be allowed in gay spaces. He may have written a blog post about it, but he also joined the MN discussion thread.

Sorry for the vagueness!

Obviously trans men aren't nearly as aggressive about being allowed into men's spaces as trans women are about being allowed into women's spaces. I can't think why that might be.

Is there any push in Ireland for transmen to be able to become priests? I'm pretty certain patriarchal religions know exactly who is/isn't a woman.

I work in a girls' school and we don't have any trans girls but we do have some few trans boys.

A friend of mine is a gay man and says a few of the dating apps he used to use before he found his partner used to get a few trans men. They wouldn't mention it in their profile or anything, but he would be able to tell based on pictures. I wondered how this went if they went on dates with gay men without the men knowing they were trans. Maybe they would have let them know in private chats or something. That's the only one I can think of.

AFAIK trans men can't go to male prisons for their own safety. Also some trans women aren't safe in male prisons. But clearly some vulnerable women aren't safe in women's prisons if certain trans women who are still biologically male are allowed to access them. Messy.

They don’t really need to fight to get into most spaces as most trans men pass well enough to get on with their lives unnoticed.

The right to inherit titles and land over younger (biological) brothers (or cousins etc if no brothers?)

There have been some instances of females trying to push into gay men's spaces and services, like dating apps, saunas, bars & clubs, retreats.
I guess similar to the AGPs it's more validating to target gay men than hetero ones.

Apparently there are hetero men who stalk gay apps and say they are open to hooking up with 'trans men'. And then these females complain the hetero men are using them while the gay ones ignore them.

I've seen at least one female try to be included in a men only suicide & depression support group. The collective decision was a polite but firm no.

Since women are not generally physically aggressive or intimidating, those that want to force themselves into men's spaces are either ignored or told no. Which leads to much whining and complaining (rather than threats of violence).

The biggest problem is in gay men's sex clubs etc. These females seem very psychologically damaged and prone to putting themselves in harmful / risky situations.
I think I read about one who seemed determined to get HIV as it would validate her as a gay man. Very crazy.

The push by the gender lobby to remove sex by deception as a crime, or at least create a loophole for 'trans' people to get away with it does have implications for gay men the most I think.

Someone else will come and say this better, but it's the colonising effect too.
Yes, men are not under threat from transmen but also transmen blend in and get on with their day.
Transwomen on the other hand, are a danger to women, are more exhibitionistic and take over the female space.
The male and female socialisation in action.

Not really a transmen in men’s spaces thing, but I believe transmen are treated as men for the purposes of giving blood - their iron levels are measured against male iron levels and they can make more frequent donations than women. Given that they are not actually male, and that the female limits on iron and donation frequency exist to counter the differences in blood volume and iron levels due to the fact that women have periods, I would think that treating transmen as men for the purposes of blood donation is probably detrimental to their health. Validating though.

The thing is it's not a fair comparison. Firstly a trans man entering male spaces poses virtually no risk based on statistics of female on male sexual and physical attacks. Secondly it is well documented that fetishes are at a far higher level experienced by men then by women. So we don't get women who fetishise being male, getting sexually aroused by wearing boxers, mens swimwear or "men's" clothes and also turned on by the subjugation of men. Where/what is the opposite sex equivalent of sissy porn? Finally, there are not leagues of men walking around who have been physically and/or sexually assaulted by women and as a result are actively scared of being in a vulnerable state with them (not saying there are none, but the numbers are tiny at a population level).

Also worth noting that the trans men who are pushing to be in male spaces have generally gone to quite some effort to pass as male. They're not rocking up in a short skirt, stilettos, full face of makeup and eyelash extensions and demanding entry claiming that any critique of their appearance is bigoted because men can dress however they want...

Oh and there doesn't seem to a a track record of trans men flashing the their genitals online or engaging online with minors and telling them to speak to them, not their parents, for example.

So men aren't generally fighting women coming in their spaces if they identify as male, because there's no intrinsic threat to them.