What male only spaces are trans men fighting for the right to access?

Wow! That's VERY atypical. I've usually had different attitudes to transwomen and transmen on the basis that the former's behaviour is typically a lot more intrusive than the latters. Girls seem to transition because they are uncomfortable with their developing bodies, the sexual attention or difficulty fitting in with other girls. Whereas adult transwomen are usually about the sexual aspects of things. Just out of curiosity, how old is this TM?

Wonder how transmen would be seated at Mr Yousef’s mosque?

In my little village there are 2 TM 'behaving badly' according to mum.

One is pretty convincing in a smaller man type of way, face piercings, a beard, facial tattoos. They use the men's loo in the pub (no lower surgery, they use the cubical) and the men have complained and leave the pub when he arrives.

Other appears to be an exhibitionist, no attempt at all to pass, walks round naked in the men's changing room at the sports centre. This also upsets a lot of men (and sometimes wives).

So neither are currently having to fight for access but they do want access and presumably feel safe enough doing it.

Men wouldn't have it. But it's ok for us?

This reminds me of that character in 1984 who worked on changing English so that people couldn't think in unapproved ways anymore because they didn't have the words for it or the meaning of the words had been altered: "It’s a beautiful thing, the destruction of words" - Symes, "1984"

They show up on Grindr though I don't think I'm adding anything new to this thread with just that fact - TMs entering gay male spaces has been referenced quite a few times already.

A lot of TMs are girls who would just be lesbians, often butch ones, if not exposed to the trans CULTure. But there's also quite a few who through abuse, discomfort with their bodies or whatever, get drawn in but that doesn't stop them being heterosexual. Confusion or misplaced expectations of gay men, leads them to try and find intimacy from gay men because that doesn't invalidate their self-image or they think gay men will be better or more understanding for some reason. The whole American sit-com "gay best friend" thing may be a factor?

I feel sorry for them. Firstly because they're not going to find what they're looking for on Grindr. Secondly, it's really not that safe. There are 'straight' men on Grindr too. Ones who are strictly fetishists about dominance/submission for whom gay sex has gotten wrapped up in that. I had a guy on there ask me if I'd ever raped a woman and wanted to bring in a TM as a third party!

Young women are at enough risk in ordinary life without registering on hook up sites like Grindr. Though mostly they are just ignored.

I was going to link to that Mr Menno video mentioned upthread where the issue of a trans man attending a gay male sauna was discussed. I can’t remember the details but Mr Menno also objected strongly to a trans man being featured on a promotional billboard for such a sauna. I think the mastectomy scars were the give away.

Basically, some trans men think it’s fine to be in these spaces giving blow jobs because, to put it bluntly, you don’t need a cxxk for that so what’s the problem? It raises the issue of sex by deception if in the steamy environment the gay man doesn’t notice that the deed is being performed by a female, which, as a gay man, he wouldn’t be in the least bit attracted to. Gay men go to gay saunas with the expectation of being in an entirely female-free space after all.

I actually think that if trans men want to use male toilets then that’s their choice. The men in there are more of a risk to them than they are to the men - I would personally worry on their behalf but respect their freedom of choice. I hate the way some beefed-up, hirsute trans men are flexing their muscles in a menacing way on their Instagram accounts saying ‘so you want ME to use the ladies?’. My response to such posturing is, I might do a double take if you came in and you might alarm some women who may not clock you so perhaps use the gents and we’ll all be happy? But I hope that third spaces will become more common so that the trans men who don’t want to take that risk can pee in peace too.

I actually think we should be very clear and say we don’t want trans women in women’s spaces and forget about arguing on behalf of the trans men who wish to take the risk of using the gents toilets. If they don’t understand the arguments/statistics vis-a-vis the threats posed by men towards women - then we’re wasting our time and energy arguing about it.

On a related point, I’m also very tired of the few high-profile trans women accounts I’ve seen where they’re all glammed up in make-up or looking ‘gorgeous’ in their sports bras and telling us they’re just about to go to the Men’s changing room in the gym (following the EHRC news) I think we’re supposed to go ‘how ridiculous’ and/or feel jealous of their gorgeousness and worry that our ‘husbands’ will be led astray by them! It’s really rather insulting and demonstrates all the sexist tropes they’re buying into - I’m just thinking - great, knock yourself out - you finally get it!!

None.

As never before we need multiple adjectives & even then there is no adjective that describes transwoman so you get the nonsense of "transgender prisoners" when we are talking transwomen. It takes a very clunky use of grammar to say what you actually want to say. Someone suggested trans-feminine...I am glad to have an adjective...still mulling it over. I always hated being "feminine" ie gender stereotypes & basically sexual objects for men. They can have trans-feminine that doesnt cost me anything.

Grammatically "trans men" is unhelpful (i wd suggest i am autistic so i get hung up on logic. A transgender woman is a transman ( no space). The word woman has a meaning it is already taken. More radical feminists disagree with me 🙄bbut strategically i just want this to be over & i think there is value in recognising they "gender identify AS women", still aint got no business in female sex segregated spaces . (I am an engineer so i have crunched the data for a full 5 years. The only test can be... sexual offending that is AS LOW as the FEMALE population. Dont make me laugh!)

There are a lot of transmen aiming to encroach on gay men's spaces, such as saunas, social groups, apps etc. I was just talking about it with a gay friend of mine recently who said he and his friends are secretly sick of it but most won't say it aloud. Have a look at some of the gaybro threads on Reddit for example. There's a lot of gay men not happy with it, but it doesn't generally get as much attention in mainstream media.

Funnily enough he said he'd never heard of transmen trying to encroach on straight mens' spaces however.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-53936529

www.starobserver.com.au/news/trans-activist-max-appenroth-is-mr-gay-germany/208104

www.sbs.com.au/topics/pride/fast-lane/article/2018/05/30/trans-man-wins-title-mr-gay-denmark

gaynation.co/trans-contestant-adrian-renor-wins-mr-gay-wellington/

Transmen are better at being men than gay men, apparently. I’d be pissed off.

But we ther than that, yes they are striking graphics.

Me too. "Male transwomen" as a phrase makes my brain stutter while I try to make sense of it and I cannot.

Agree.

The graphics are really great.

They're striking graphics. You probably should start a separate thread to discuss these, @Pommie69

This image took me far too long to decipher.

Point is... sex segregation needs to be made part of law, with the explicit duty on organisations to mitigate against rapey spaces. I have stats from moj 2016-22 and a whole bunch of other stats (globally) and they all say one thing:
SEX SEGREGATION is a MUST.
We are RIGHT to be afraid. I have the real stats in front of me ie 2016-22 MOJ and a bunch of FOIs and I am here to tell you that EVEN with transmen bundled in (most of the ONS figure is not sex disaggregated) it is higher than male.
However, that doesnt actually help for female sex segregated spaces because the test they have to meet is AS LOW (or lower) than the sexual offending of the female population. The other thing I can hear, in responses from me to not over-inflate the statistics is "they havent listened so we have to make it look even worse than it is, in order to get them to listen.
The over-inflated calculations are unhelpful because it can lay those asserting the case for absolute sex segregation open to i) hysterical ii) transphobic and iii) not very good at Maths!
I have all the stats and am preparing a report for desks of every single MP before next election and I could sure use some help.
>Photoshop
>graphic design
> website (I have one but it needs cheering up)
> it also needs ecommerce so when the report is ready I can get it to everyone who wants one to give to people.
I am sure everyone is hard up but just in case you have any to spare I do have a crowdfunder but too busy to do much to promote it. If I dont keep my eye on the stats, it will be so hard to catch it back up.
I have spent over £1,500 from savings and I really can't afford to spend much more but I HAVE the resources to sort this mess out.

If you google Mr Menno Gay Guy reacts to Wavey Davey you'll find a Mr Menno rant about transmen expecting gay men to accept them as sexual partners.

For reasons I can't recall we're not allowed to link directly to it here.

If you are in the UK the automatic right to inherit is for titles only- not land.

The fetish groups have chairmen? And, presumably votes?

Did not expect it to be so, well, organised!

I saw that one leather fetish gay men's group made a big deal about accepting trans men into their group and the shock of the chariman when the majority of members were against such proposals.

Also seen disappointment at trans men going to gay clubs and realising that muscular gay men just wanted to be with other muscular men and not a geeky teenage girl with a moustache.

Usually get this stuff from Glinner's substack.

If I recall correctly though, the reason they gave was because they thought it might not be allowed under their licence. They then contacted whoever makes those decisions who said it was fine, so they allowed transmen afterwards.

It was controversial with the clients, from what I understand, but the club was not willing to take a stand on it.

Outside of London but pretty typical of scene everywhere I would say, @vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Have seen growing dissatisfaction amongst younger TM on the fet scene re being sidelined/ fetishised for being trans. More "queer focussed" and heavily vetted events have sprung up. A lot of discussions of "problematic" practices. The whole rabbit hole is problematic. You can see a lot of broken, deeply unhappy people.

If that bar is in London, @JustStopOilyPoshKids then it is probably the same one that these young TM are going to. Unless there's a chain of them like Spoons.