Existential Angst

InterestingUsernameTBC · 2022-10-07T12:30:13+00:00

Events at work this week and the discussion here re: Nicola Sturgeon have reignited my recurring feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness. To express perfectly reasonable, understandable, logical, evidenced concerns about the harms that come from self-ID and to have that all just dismissed. I really fear for the society my daughters are growing up in and I feel utterly powerless to do anything about it. The march towards self-ID feels inevitable. And I just can't envisage a reasonable outcome. How do we create a society that recognises and accepts all those people who, for whatever reason, want to deny their sex whilst simultaneously recognising and accepting all those people who, for whatever reason, want to (or can't help but...) recognise sex? We can all accept people of other religious beliefs, and make accommodations for them to hold and practice their beliefs because there is no obligation on us to participate in those beliefs or any associated rituals in everyday life. (Totally understandable to observe rituals you may not believe in when you're in someone else's religious space. And as a society we do allow people to have religious spaces.) But with self-ID we are all expected to participate in an individual's belief about themselves. We are all asked to participate in their rituals through the use of pronouns. Their 'religious space' as we might see it, becomes society itself. So where do those of us who don't share that belief system fit into society?

DameMaud · 10/10/2022 12:53

@InterestingUsernameTBC
It's good to finally feel less alone. Thank god for Mumsnet!
Nice to meet you Intresting!🖐

Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 10/10/2022 12:27

@DameMaud
At the same time, it was actually physiologically traumatic- especially when effectively ignored/dismissed.
Oh my God. Yes. This.

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DameMaud · 10/10/2022 11:26

@InterestingUsernameTBC
Yes. I'm finding it all very destabilising too.
Sometimes think I should stay away from it all as I think it does affect mental health. But then so does willful ignorance and silence.
I think it's helped to start tentatively speaking out (did recently in my professional life); in one way it helped to say what I thought and felt rather than swallowing it down. At the same time, it was actually physiologically traumatic- especially when effectively ignored/dismissed.
It's a conundrum!

Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 10/10/2022 11:18

@DameMaud
Thank you. I think you've grasped what I'm getting at and you've helped give it some context.
It seems, what we are in the midst of, is a worldwide call to change existing consensus reality.
Yes. That's it. And that's destabilising.

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DameMaud · 10/10/2022 09:50

Typos!
call not cal to change.
Over the wisdom of age, not I've

DameMaud · 10/10/2022 09:47

@InterestingUsernameTBC

From wiki on 'Consensus Reality':

Consensus reality[1] is that which is generally agreed to be reality, based on a consensus view.

The appeal to consensus arises from the idea that humans do not fully understand or agree upon the nature of knowledge or ontology, often making it uncertain what is real, given the vast inconsistencies between individual subjectivities.[2][3] Humans can, however, seek to obtain some form of consensus, with others, of what is real. This consensus can be used as a pragmatic guide, either on the assumption that it seems to approximate some kind of valid reality, or simply because it is more "practical" than perceived alternatives. Consensus reality therefore refers to the agreed-upon concepts of reality which people in the world, or a culture or group, believe are real (or treat as real), usually based upon their common experiences as they believe them to be; anyone who does not agree with these is sometimes stated to be "in effect... living in a different world."[4]

Throughout history this has also raised a social question as to the effects of a society in which all individuals do not agree upon the same reality.

Children have sometimes been described or viewed as "inexperience[d] with consensus reality,"[5] though are described as such with the expectation that their perspective will progressively form closer to the consensus reality of their society as they age.

It seems, what we are in the midst of, is a worldwide cal to change existing consensus reality.
The last little paragraph is interesting, as I link this with a cultural shift from valuing the wisdom of youth I've the wisdom of age.
The value of maturity and emotional and social development does seem less valued than it used to be, imo.

I enjoyed your post. Love a philosophical view

Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 10/10/2022 09:30

Some more musings. I'm no philosopher. Maybe this is all a load of whatever. But anyway.

Post modernism holds that there is no universal truth. That truth is dependent on who is experiencing it. Truth is individual. Can we embrace individual truth but somehow hold onto a collective truth at the same time? I can't see how we can. To accept individual truth is to let go of any kind of collective reality. And if my truth is that there is a collective reality then in order to embrace individual truth I must let go of my own reality and I find that deeply destabilising and disorientating.

There's also the post modern idea that words dictate reality.
A cat only becomes a cat because we label it a cat. It could just as easily be a dog. And if that's the case what do words even mean? How do we have any collective meaning? How do we describe reality? What even is reality?

If the word woman means a male or a female person then what is a woman? How do you describe the reality of being a woman? Is there even a reality of being a woman? Am I a woman? Do women even exist?

So if I work it back. Of course women exist we all came out of one. Am I a woman? Of course, I've had 2 babies. Is there a reality of being a woman. I believe there is. The reality is whatever you experience as a female person.

So I can't accept that the word woman includes male people. And if it does then we need a new word for female people. And if there are female people who believe that word does not apply to them then I don't see how I can embrace that without letting go of my own reality. And I appreciate that they may well be experiencing the exact same feelings but from the other side, that if my truth is reality then they have to let go of their own reality.

So as a society where do we go from here?

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RaininginDarling · 09/10/2022 02:01

JellySaurus · 07/10/2022 16:58

Not sure my friend's parents would agree with you. They consider existential angst to be a luxury indulged in by people whose fundamental needs are secure. My friend's parents are Holocaust survivors.

Interesting thread although I must disagree with this slightly uncharitable view of existentialism - and would recommend reading Viktor Frankl. He was a holocaust survivor himself & his book "Man's Search For Meaning" is about his time in the camps and his own struggle to stay alive. Its a hard read but full of great wisdom, not a hint of luxurious pontificating but the harsh realities of what gives live purpose when everything is taken away from you, including your personhood.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 08/10/2022 17:54

InterestingUsernameTBC · 08/10/2022 10:31

Thanks for the replies everyone. Bit of a revelation this morning. I've pinpointed the crux of the issue. You can't simultaneously respect everyone's right not to believe in gender identity whilst at the same time expecting everyone to go along with gender identities. You just can't. There is no solution that allows both of these to be function at the same time.

In the same way as we can't respect everyone's right to hold racist views whilst simultaneously expecting everyone to not be racist. As a society we've decided that we don't respect racist views. That's how we've solved that dichotomy.

With sex and gender, as a society, we are tussling over which way we're going to fall. Do we continue to respect everyone's right not to believe? Or do we expect everyone to go along with it? And if we're expecting everyone to go along with it what are the sanctions if they don't?

We have a stand-off.
One side says, if you respected my belief you would use my pronouns.
The other responds, if you respected my lack of belief you wouldn't ask me to.

I can't know where this will end up and that is a source of anxiety sometimes. But being able to articulate the issue is really helpful. I will continue to remind people that the law protects non-belief whilst demonstrating that non-belief is totally compatible with respect and compassion for everyone.

Yes I think that this is an important insight. I would say that the law (and my personal morality) upholds someone's right to believe that there is such a thing as gender identities and to think that they are important.

I (and anyone else) remain completely free to not care. I am free to walk down the street and not pander to the ego and feelings of anyone. I do not have a legal obligation to care about the feelings of people who clearly do not care for my feelings.

JellySaurus · 08/10/2022 12:56

I don't mean to denigrate your mental health in any way. We're in a hideous position and, yes, I worry about our future, too. I have just dispatched a vulnerable dd to a university that is soaked in Stonewall rainbows.

I'm not sure what you find ambiguous about my position on the rights of women and vulnerable people, nor about the rights of people to believe or disbelieve what they want.

Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 08/10/2022 12:25

JellySaurus, your posts are ambiguous and don't immediately align you with one side or the other. I think I may have initially interpreted your words from the opposite perspective.

The angst kicks in when events suggest that society will inevitably be reorganised around the concept of gender identity over sex. Events like the pushing forward of self-ID in Scotland and the possibility of Labour following suit if they take power again. The angst is, how do you fit into a society that is intent on making your thoughts illegal?

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Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 08/10/2022 12:11

Thanks for your diagnosis, JellySaurus. I assure you this matter does affect my mental health sometimes.

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JanieAllen · 08/10/2022 12:10

Imagine telling a trans person that their beliefs in their ideology are "luxury" because some people were in the Holocaust!
Oh my goodness.

oh it sodding is

JellySaurus · 08/10/2022 12:05

I don't think you have the existential angst, InterestingUsernameTBC. I think the people with existential angst are the ones trying to square the circle. You, together with other GC people, have no issue accepting that there is a plurality of beliefs, and that nobody should be penalised for holding or not holding a belief, nor be given power over others due to their belief. Straightforward. It's people struggling with their own beliefs who have the existential angst.

Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 08/10/2022 11:56

The question is do we want a respectful society or a dictatorial theocracy?

How dictatorial is it to insist that people deny the evidence of their own eyes with regards to someone's sex?

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Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 08/10/2022 11:53

JellySaurus · 08/10/2022 11:30

And we do have examples of belief and unbelief functioning side by side. Here in the UK Jews can freely practice their religion, despite being a tiny minority believing and practicing differently to the rest of the country. You are not required to profess any of their beliefs, or follow any of their practices. All that is required of you is to ensure they have the same freedom to practice their beliefs as you have to practice your Christian beliefs (or atheist beliefs), as long as their practice of their beliefs causes you no harm or distress.

We are not required to follow any of their practices.

Exactly. Using pronouns to refer to gender identity rather than sex is a practice of the belief in gender identity, is it not? Pronouns existed way before gender identity did.

And there is nothing disrespectful about observing someone's sex. Most of the time we cant help it. It can't possibly be disrespectful to notice someone's sex.

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JellySaurus · 08/10/2022 11:30

And we do have examples of belief and unbelief functioning side by side. Here in the UK Jews can freely practice their religion, despite being a tiny minority believing and practicing differently to the rest of the country. You are not required to profess any of their beliefs, or follow any of their practices. All that is required of you is to ensure they have the same freedom to practice their beliefs as you have to practice your Christian beliefs (or atheist beliefs), as long as their practice of their beliefs causes you no harm or distress.

JellySaurus · 08/10/2022 11:25

No stand-off.

Do we continue to respect everyone's right not to believe? Or do we expect everyone to go along with it?

One of those perspectives is respectful, the other is disrespectful.

The question is do we want a respectful society or a dictatorial theocracy? There are plenty ofexamples of dictatorial theocracies in both the present and in our history. Are they something to emulate?

Original poster

InterestingUsernameTBC · 08/10/2022 10:31

Thanks for the replies everyone. Bit of a revelation this morning. I've pinpointed the crux of the issue. You can't simultaneously respect everyone's right not to believe in gender identity whilst at the same time expecting everyone to go along with gender identities. You just can't. There is no solution that allows both of these to be function at the same time.

In the same way as we can't respect everyone's right to hold racist views whilst simultaneously expecting everyone to not be racist. As a society we've decided that we don't respect racist views. That's how we've solved that dichotomy.

With sex and gender, as a society, we are tussling over which way we're going to fall. Do we continue to respect everyone's right not to believe? Or do we expect everyone to go along with it? And if we're expecting everyone to go along with it what are the sanctions if they don't?

We have a stand-off.
One side says, if you respected my belief you would use my pronouns.
The other responds, if you respected my lack of belief you wouldn't ask me to.

I can't know where this will end up and that is a source of anxiety sometimes. But being able to articulate the issue is really helpful. I will continue to remind people that the law protects non-belief whilst demonstrating that non-belief is totally compatible with respect and compassion for everyone.

OP posts:

Empowermenomore · 07/10/2022 21:14

I do share the angst, at times despair, that society is going backwards.

Then I think, hey! remember what happened with smoking in public! and I feel a little tiny bit better.

Women's rights are always somewhere between the ball being on the long grass or being in the long game, so fed up!

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 07/10/2022 21:12

YouSirNeighMmmm · 07/10/2022 16:29

I think the problem is that humans can cope with problems, set-backs and unfairness (three things that most of us are facing most of the time)... so long as there is a sense that as a society and as a species we are moving forward. When we look around and it seems like things are moving backwards not forwards then those problems, set-backs and unfairness hit us so much harder.

yes I agree

Baaaaaa · 07/10/2022 20:36

Carproblem · 07/10/2022 18:06

Imagine telling a trans person that their beliefs in their ideology are "luxury" because some people were in the Holocaust!
Oh my goodness.

I thought it was an entirely valid and well articulated point.

You are right about the the ideology bit though, or was it a freudian slip and you meant identity?

DameMaud · 07/10/2022 20:36

Wise words Jellysaurus

JellySaurus · 07/10/2022 18:16

When you’re feeling stronger you can cover for someone else. It’s a relay ultra-marathon not a sprint!

Absolutely.

"The unexamined life is not worth living". Existentialism has its place in improving our lives, but being overwhelmed by angst does not improve anyone's life.

waterwitch · 07/10/2022 18:09

TBC i often feel like that as well. I also feel like that about climate change and disintegrating ecosystems (I work in that area)
I do agree with Jelly that if people are wondering where their next meal is coming from, and worrying about whether they’ll still be alive in the morning, that doesn’t leave room for any of this stuff, so it is sort of a luxury.
OTOH, if nobody is considering these things, then you suddenly realise the whole world’ has changed while you weren’t watching, not in a good way; and it’s too late to do anything about it.
I think all we can do is stay positive, stay strong & keep fighting. Read what you can, share what you learn, develop your arguments so they’re strong and if you can do a bit of gardening that does seem to be getting some good results. Also, take care of yourself, if you need to take a break, then take one. When you’re feeling stronger you can cover for someone else. It’s a relay ultra-marathon not a sprint! 💐💐💐