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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carolyn Farrow taken to police station

785 replies

ScreamingMeMe · 04/10/2022 08:10

Long twitter thread here. She's had her electronic devices seized too, and has been accused of being certain posters on Kiwi Farms and Mumsnet

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly and @BreakWindandFire sorry to tag you but she's been accused of being you!

We all know who this will be, but as Caroline says, please don't speculate/discuss them.

twitter.com/CF_Farrow/status/1577092705154666496?t=Cv7tRv3YdqIogpXT_MSwZQ&s=19

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14
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 05/10/2022 17:39

great summary of KF @TheClogLady

in much the same way as people are often pretty horrified when they first come here at all the mean mothers, and behaviour which is pretty standard, like robustly demanding evidence and pissing yourself laughing if wikipedia or pink news are offered up can be taken as attacks, KF takes a bit of getting used to. I've come to realise that much of what they say, while it seems extreme to me, probably doesn't to people who've been operating in that environment for years.

I still don't like it much though.

MelodyPondsMum · 05/10/2022 17:38

Religion is a protected characteristic and can be an aggravating factor in harassment. So Caro's religion might have been mentioned in that context. She might be being harassed (either by the police or the complainant) because of her religious beliefs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 17:27

Obviously the meme won't be able to be posted here, I believe you can view it on the fruit site as they don't delete stuff and that's where it was posted originally.

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 17:18

Ah, you've read less on here than you think, @MargaritaPie . Christianity is one of the scourges of the world, according to many, and all those who believe in a sky fairy should be avoided and removed from positions of responsibility.

It's one of the places where people don't look away embarrassed at the funny religious person, but sharpen their swords and dig in.

<funny religious person here>

MargaritaPie · 05/10/2022 17:15

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 16:57

It's a double whammy.
'Look at this poor harmless mumsy, old fashioned, conservative woman'
And
'Ooh, Look! A religious nutter!'

Can be read whichever way you like. Win win.

Could be interpreted either way depending on the reader.

I was thinking the DM probably made a point of saying she's Catholic to try and paint a picture of a little old Christian dear who reads her bible and attends Sunday service and therefore couldn't possibly do anything bad.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 17:13

ComebackQueen · 05/10/2022 15:33

Sorry, what’s the back story to KF?

i am scared to Google, especially if people are posting nasty things about the holocaust. Why even think that’s acceptable?

Kiwi Farms is an old fashioned style Internet forum, same as mumsnet is.

It’s based in the USA and thus operates under the constitutional freedom of speech laws that exist there (we do not have the same legal protections).

It’s anonymous and like other interactive websites, different parts of the site have a different culture/character.

As social media has become increasingly censorious, various different groups, some of whom have absolutely nothing in common, have all ended up there, simply because it’s one of the few places on the internet where you can still type out what you are actually thinking.

This has the side effect of some posters using all the words that you can’t say elsewhere, often all at once, in a close to nonsensical way. It’s a bit shocking when you first happen across it.

The site was originally created as a place to document the online shenanigans of an internet ‘personality’ known as Chris Chan.

From there, other strange internet characters have also spawned their own threads. Site owner Josh has a self declared interest in people with unusual psychologies.

The main part of the site is the above. It’s gossiping about weird internet celebs that aren’t particularly well known in the mainstream. Posters screen shot what these characters put out via social media and share it on dedicated threads, mostly to laugh at them. These people are called ‘Lolcows’ because their online presence can be milked for laughs. One of the very few rules on the site is ‘don’t touch the poo’ - ie don’t interact or make personal contact with the ‘lolcows’ (people did historically interact with original lolcow Chris Chan but that began before kiwi farms was a thing).

The thing with serial internet oversharers is they often have mental health issues. A couple of former lolcows have sadly taken their own lives and people who don’t like KF have tried to blame the suicides on the site. However, suicide is multi faceted, it’s perfectly possible for the suicides to be entirely unrelated to the site, certainly the friends and loved ones of the deceased have not blamed the site, apart from one who was an abusive ex boyfriend, whose abuse of his former girlfriend had been documented by the Farmers (!)

It’s perfectly possible for a lolcow to know nothing at all about their KF thread (due to site rule ‘don’t touch the poo’) unless they go looking.

One of the suicides associated with the Farms seems to have been faked anyway (it was an internet persona without a person attached, so pretty easy, and sensible, to just reinvent oneself and leave that online persona behind).

All the swearing and random
slurs make it easy to mischaracterise the thread as a hate site, but actually some of threads are quite supportive and caring about the pet lolcows - farmers tend to be quite strident in support of children and have documented abuse and tried to stop it (farmers have contacted police and/or child protection after witnessing troubling things in a thread subject’s social media posts). The site has also been blamed for coordinating ‘swatting attacks’ but that is definitely not something that is in anyway endorsed (the owner of the site has been targeted this way, as has Mumsnet’s owner, Justine).

In 2020, Reddit kicked a load of subreddits off the site, some of these were on the MRA (Manosphere) end of the spectrum and some were right wing political (eg r/thedonald) some were radical/gender critical feminist.
Lots of now homeless redditors migrated to the farms, which is why you have some areas that seem pretty hardcore feminist and some that are alt right. The site owner has tried to accommodate both new sets of members and the main menu is colour coded, and the moderation is a little different in the different areas (eg a female lolcow in the ironically named beauty parlour area tends to have majority female followers who are annoyed by refugees from r/thedonald popping up regular to say things like ‘wow, she’s (insert insult here) but I’d still shag her’ so that kind of nonsense gets deleted by mods.

in the bottom area of the site menu, it’s a lot more of a free for all frenzy of insults and the site owner has admitted he doesn’t really like it much but tolerates it due to his belief in free speech.

As you can imagine a site where anonymous people can say whatever they like does attract some
bad actors, however there are a few rules and it is possible to get banned. Anything posted has to be legal under US freedom of speech laws (so no incitement to violence, no illegal images) or will be deleted and porn is discouraged (because it’s everywhere else on the internet, pretty much). Critics of KiwiFarms complain of ‘doxing’ (the publishing of a persons address) but to anyone over the age of about 30 who can remember telephone directories in every hallway it’s all a bit ¯\(ツ)/¯

Every KF post has a member reacts function so anyone persistently posting idiotic stuff will end up with a negative member rating overall. Basically it’s like a stickers reward system and if you post stuff that horrifies other posters, even in jest, you’ll lose points from your overall score.

To my mind it’s what the early internet would’ve grown be if all the big tech owners were libertarians rather than authoritarians.

The site has a lot of enemies because the members are akin to being the librarians of people doing dickish things on the internet.

None of that is really relevant to Caroline’s story beyond that the site has a bad reputation (due to all the people who don’t want paedos and abusers and fetishists to be documented collectively smearing the site as ‘far right’) and that it’s anonymous, so Person X who has been harassing Caroline in various ways for some years could theoretically post something terrible and then go to the police claiming it was Caroline who posted it.

The police SHOULD have better things to do with their time but person x is of a special protected group who seem to be able to make the police jump to their tune at will, and Caroline is a boring old Catholic mother of five.

Mumsnet FWR posters are largely sympathetic to the Farms because ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ and the same people who harass and hack and launch DDOS attacks on the farms do exactly the same thing to Mumsnet.

The owner of KF has expressed solidarity with Justine of Mumsnet in the past.

You can go read it without signing up - you won’t catch cooties (but the language will probably make your eyebrows rise so high you’ll look like you’ve had a facelift).

(advance apologies for typos and poor grammar, I have mislead my reading spectacles and cannot be arsed to peer at these tiny letters I am typing any longer)

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 17:03

Ok, the meme is too nasty to share. Sorry, I'm behind. So much to catch up on today!

LaughingPriest · 05/10/2022 16:59

Slightly off-topic but I wonder why the DM considers her religious beliefs to be important enough to be part of the headline?

Right - the usual format is it should include the value of her house!

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 16:57

It's a double whammy.
'Look at this poor harmless mumsy, old fashioned, conservative woman'
And
'Ooh, Look! A religious nutter!'

Can be read whichever way you like. Win win.

MargaritaPie · 05/10/2022 16:48

Slightly off-topic but I wonder why the DM considers her religious beliefs to be important enough to be part of the headline?

Would it make any difference at all if she were atheist, agonist, or literally any other religion?

BordoisAgain · 05/10/2022 16:36

ComebackQueen · 05/10/2022 15:33

Sorry, what’s the back story to KF?

i am scared to Google, especially if people are posting nasty things about the holocaust. Why even think that’s acceptable?

They mostly discuss, document and archive the behaviours of the more unsavoury denizens of the Internet (referred to as lolcows)

There is no censorship on there so some of the discussions can use some robust and offensive language.

Obviously the people having their behaviour documented (and their supporters) don't like it very much and keep trying to close it down with varying levels of success.

There is some horrible stuff on there, no doubt but if you accept freedom of speech then you have to accept people will say shitty things.

beastlyslumber · 05/10/2022 16:34

So the police in that Mail article said that Caroline was "requested to attend a voluntary interview" - I can't believe they can get away with saying that!

How much do you want to bet that a certain someone posted the offensive memes themselves... you'd think the police would be able to work that out without too much trouble.

But. They are not our police anymore. They are Stasi.

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 16:27

I wonder if thousands of people reposted it, how many hours of police work would be required to track us all down?

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 16:27

Is there somewhere to go to see the infamous meme? It would be really helpful to know what to avoid posting- I don't want to be arrested!

nauticant · 05/10/2022 16:23

That was the "pov ur a terf in my mentions" meme on twitter:

twitter.com/search?q=pov%20%22in%20my%20mentions%22%20terf&src=typed_query&f=live

If you browse down and see the images of violent threats by men against non-compliant women.

ImherewithBoudica · 05/10/2022 16:11

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 15:52

Agree, pickle. I do not condone this image, it's disgusting. However equal fantasies have been posted about killing specific gender critical women, and the police do nothing.

This. It's a nasty image, I don't condone it either.

However it's a cartoon where at one point there was a viral thing on Twitter of male people from a range of genders photographing themselves holding real weapons as if standing over a victim, things like machetes, with the tagline being something 'your view, if' (you are a woman who defends women's rights and safeguarding). Real people, real weapons, imagined intent.

No one turned a hair. The images were freely supported on Twitter, no police interest, women were told it was just conversation and hyperbole and bantz. JKR has had direct, multiple death threats, personally addressed to her, in meme and other forms. So have plenty of other women.

So which is it? Are images harmless or not? And if not, the police have several thousand cases to get on ASAP re women alongside this one.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 15:53

I hope this case is ultimately used as an object lesson to reform police practices; it seems to be exposing a lot of scary weaknesses in the system.

YY.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 15:52

Agree, pickle. I do not condone this image, it's disgusting. However equal fantasies have been posted about killing specific gender critical women, and the police do nothing.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 05/10/2022 15:50

It was almost as though they had been handed a pre-written case that was good to go

You’d think the fact that the case is against an innocent person would be a substantive weakness in it.

Is the person who wrote up the case consciously trying to frame you? Perhaps relying on the knowledge that Kiwi Farms won’t turn over IP information to the cops? Or are they so fixated that they really think you did it? Probably you shouldn’t answer that! I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I hope this case is ultimately used as an object lesson to reform police practices; it seems to be exposing a lot of scary weaknesses in the system.

RoyalCorgi · 05/10/2022 15:48

SnapeAlways · 05/10/2022 15:38

Double post, the police have said they seized my devices to prove or disprove the allegation.

At interview they were unable to provide me with any evidence that I was responsible for the cartoon. They just presented it as an exhibit to me which had been provided to them by the complainant.

The polive had seemingly been presented with a number of well ordered and correctly numbered exhibits. It was almost as though they had been handed a pre-written case that was good to go, which had saved them the trouble of any investigative work. Gosh yes, this does look terrible doesn’t it, right we’ll go and bring her in.

Thanks, Caroline - this is horrifying. Is there anything we can do to help?

WarriorN · 05/10/2022 15:47

What?

colouringindoors · 05/10/2022 15:47

picklemewalnuts · 04/10/2022 10:44

What highlights the insanity of this situation is that actual threats of violence against women, made by people who don't bother to hide who they are, which are not considered worthy of investigation.

Whatever you may think about Carolyn and her beliefs, the contrast with the acceptance of violence against women. Is stark.

Exactly.

HatThatWearsYou · 05/10/2022 15:47

Fucking hell!

ScreamingMeMe · 05/10/2022 15:46

This can't be happening!

Carolyn Farrow taken to police station
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