Men of the far right and the women's movement

Congratulations, you've just described ideological purity. "We should only align with people who want the same thing as us for the same reasons."

And honestly, if you think that any hint of connection to the far right damages the cause, STOP BLOODY HINTING IT

I’m not sure left, right etc are that useful in thinking about this. There’s a lot of people who don’t agree with gender identity once they tune into it, because it’s such obvious nonsense causing so many massive problems. But it’s still important why people don’t agree.

• One set of reasons not to agree with gender ID is because it’s terrible for women, children and gay/lesbian people.

• Then there’s the authoritarian culture around it and the idea we’re all meant to say things which aren’t true, the moral policing and purity spirals.

• A different reason is because people being visibly trans involves more men wearing dresses and more women having male names and everyone doing things they’re not meant to do according to patriarchy.

Now we all get accused all the time of being against gender ID because of this last reason. It doesn’t remotely help making the actual gender critical case if people who think the first two things ally with people who think the last thing. As we’re talking about people who think social liberalism -including women’s rights- have gone too far and need to be reversed.

Its not about purity or elitism or particular personalities. It’s about what are gender critical political interests and which kind of allies help or hinder these interests. Any hint of far right involvement will harm the gender critical case.

As for the female athletes: that‘s the thing, isn‘t it. Regarding such clear women’s rights issues the Left now always delivers too little too late (if at all) and is then miffed when someone from the other side takes up the cause ‚for the wrong reasons’ AND THE ABANDONED VICTIMS OF THE DISCRMINATION DON‘T PREVENT IT.

Posie‘s goal may not be their goal, but surely the goals overlap well enough (women only spaces, not transing kids…) that kneecapping Posie is counter- productive to their own stated cause, no?

Also, Posie's goal isn't their goal. She's not particularly gender critically focussed, as far as I know.

She wants men out of women's spaces and children protected from what she sees as a mens rights movement.

No, exactly. This is why she appeals to ordinary women, because you don't have to read reams of inaccessible academic waffle to have an opinion on it.

So these girls should also then be ostracised? Should they have a denouncement?

thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-girl-track-stars-take-connecticut-to-court-over-biological-males-in-their-sport

Oh wait, since no one else would take their case, weren't they already ostracised?

Also, Posie's goal isn't their goal. She's not particularly gender critically focussed, as far as I know.

She wants men out of women's spaces and children protected from what she sees as a mens rights movement.

I see it as masquerading as an ideology, pretending to be a civil rights issue, but I'm not even sure she goes that far.

'Porn addled men using kids to justify their demands' is mostly her take.

She doesn't get bogged down with they whys and wherefores. She knows people can mostly see through it, all she does is lift the lid.

It's not the same process as a lot of feminists take. They see it all as symptomatic of a patriarchy. But you don't have to even believe in a patriarchy to see it as wrong.

And that's why she's reaching so many people. She doesn't require conditions from people to let them support her goal.

TLDR: eyes on the prize.

As a side note, I'd be interested to see if she turns her attention elsewhere once this is sorted. Dismantling patriarchy one symptom at a time, sort of thing. Without even mentioning the word.

Bitossi if OP was a TRA, how do we know they are not a TRA now and that the whole point of the exercise is not to blunt and undermine a movement that might achieve the very goals TRAs fight against?

Well, I think it's up to us all what we think.

Yet, this seems to be the end goal of those who are tightening the purity spiral for women fighting against the conflicts of gender identity ideology, isn’t it?

Yes, it does.

Feminists don't "own" the campaign to oppose gender ideology, how is this any of my business?

This. Of course not everyone who thinks gender identity ideology and queer theory teaching in schools is absurd and toxic is going to be aligned with you politically.

No one knew who they were and they appear to have had very little interaction with anyone else at the event. Most of us had no idea who they were until the real feminists™ told us. The video footage was of poor quality and HoO have had very few views and most of the comments on the video suggest few, if any, of their viewers have any idea what the event was about. It's the real feminists™ insisting that there is a relationship between SFW and HoO, the evidence does not support this claim.

Don’t forget that the Brighton feminists attempted to retrospectively use the presence of this group (initially we were told it was two men!!) as an explanation why they weren’t present. Like they knew they would be there.

I guess that those supporting denouncement demands would also be happy with this type of action at conferences and seminars.

twitter.com/shonaghdillon/status/1575058128374099970?s=46&t=ZezFEDboHlNCUC8Z-cb8Jg

Both Shonagh Dillon and Julie Bindel had their tickets cancelled to a gender based violence conference last month. Because they are the wrong type of feminists.

or this

twitter.com/el_nagashi/status/1575124199366074368?s=46&t=ZezFEDboHlNCUC8Z-cb8Jg

Lesbian’s tickets cancelled to a European Lesbian conference for wrong think.

Yet, this seems to be the end goal of those who are tightening the purity spiral for women fighting against the conflicts of gender identity ideology, isn’t it?

This is how echo chambers are created and strengthened. This is a probable end result in the current demands.

Obviously some people think this is righteous. That their left wing credentials remain for ever unsullied by even a whiff of ever speaking to or passing in the vicinity of someone not approved.

If that is their priority, fine. Just don’t bully others to follow suit. Just be up front that purity is the priority and that hypocritically, bullying is fair game to achieve that need.

Bitossi if OP was a TRA, how do we know they are not a TRA now and that the whole point of the exercise is not to blunt and undermine a movement that might achieve the very goals TRAs fight against?

The OP used to be a TRA IIRC from her earlier MN posting.

The nature of the complaints against KJK seem to be evolving as each one is shown to be unfounded.

1.The fascists should have been asked to leave.

It was an open invitation to an event held in a public space, how would that work? If asking undesirables to leave was effective we'd have used it on the TRA's long ago. The undesirables in this instance appear to be free speech advocates how do you square that with fascism?

2.The women who spoke should have been asked for their consent to be filmed by a right wing organisation.

They chose to speak in a public place, there is no law against randoms filming them and doing whatever the hell they like with the footage. A forensic analysis of the available footage reveals that every woman and her dog was filming on their phone and the much discussed inner circle was a space ANYONE could enter without invitation. Is it reasonable or even feasible to establish the motives of every single person filming?

3.Associating with fascists damages the cause.

No one knew who they were and they appear to have had very little interaction with anyone else at the event. Most of us had no idea who they were until the real feminists™ told us. The video footage was of poor quality and HoO have had very few views and most of the comments on the video suggest few, if any, of their viewers have any idea what the event was about. It's the real feminists™ insisting that there is a relationship between SFW and HoO, the evidence does not support this claim.

4.The movement will be taken over by fascists/violent men if we allow them to attend and film these events.

Thanks for the vote of confidence in women's intelligence. Women are not responsible for the behaviour of men.

5.Right wingers oppose gender ideology for different (the wrong) reasons to feminists.

Feminists don't "own" the campaign to oppose gender ideology, how is this any of my business? Feminists do not think the right is looking after our interests and we know the left isn't, we're on our own. I don't have the energy or inclination to argue with people who agree with me on this just because I may not like the rest of their politics. A man or woman with a camera phone, whatever their politics, has less impact on my life than the politicians of all stripes who are shitting on women.

6.You're trying to silence the real feminists™ right to free speech.

Pure fucking Darvo.

From watching this Brighton debacle, I get the feeling that the Real Feminists would be fine with many of the tactics that TRAs use, as long as they weren't on the wrong side of it.

ClogLady

Kids don’t have time to wait for The Real Feminists of Brighton to fix things.

2 years til mine could theoretically chop her tits off with the cash in the Child Trust Fund that New Labour gave her.

Looking at the state of their hometown, The Real Feminists of Brighton are the least qualified of us all to prevent teenagers from self harming via the teachings of Queer Theory.

Maybe second after Joe Biden, if I’m feeling generous.

Or it could be they have a point.

Any sort of point they had has long been swallowed up in grandstanding and petty, childish, factional behaviour.

I‘d like to add: people who are isolated from the repercussions of certain policies are usually much more willing to go for incremental change that doesn’t upset anyone than those who suffer the consequences of said policies.

Not sure how Real Feminsim think they‘ll ever get anything done, though.

What‘s the strategy, convincing half of the country of their precise teachings and only then starting to fight in this new-built, pure coalition for what would have a majority now, but with the ‚wrong people‘? This may be good for clout-building and resume polishing but does nothing to achieve the goals at hand.

It all boils down to what I said previously: they are not in it to win it.

The main lesson I'm taking from this is that Real Feminism is caught up in a purity spiral and as such is thoroughly corrupt.

I have not identified as a feminist for a very long time now, and this debacle is confirming that this was a good choice for me.

It has also made me see that the most effective campaigning is done on the basis of freedom of speech, honesty and integrity. That's what KJK does and it's why she matters, as opposed to the Real Feminists, who do not seem to be able to make an impact. They are hobbled by their commitment to ideological purity at all costs - even the cost of their own movement.

Sounds like fear.

Pressed submit too quickly.

However, others understand that it has crossed into bullying. Yet, those bullying fail to see that.

Those people who create a sin page for the people who are generally fighting for the same things, just differently, and publish it, are bullies. The sole purpose is to highlight that full submission is expected or you cannot be part of us.

Or it could be that a faction of feminists are known for doing this.

But I also see guilt-by-association used by feminists against other feminists. And indeed I have used it in the past myself. Within left-leaning feminism, as within the Left generally, it is a heavily used tool. There is sharp criticism of any feminist who would associate for strategic reasons with those on the Right, and in particular with the Christian Right in the US.

Note in this paragraph ‘indeed I have used it in the past myself’.

Wasn’t Dr Kathleen Stock on your list of respected feminists on the other thread, Sappho? This is a quote from her work.

kathleenstock.substack.com/p/on-guilt-by-association?utm_source=twitter&sd=pf

Nobody has removed any feminists right to speak. To make their points. They have been free to make points and continue to do so.