Men of the far right and the women's movement

Sometimes you might work with people who disagree to achieve a particular aim. But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

Those are your words ⬆️

Can you please find me the bits where ‘lots of people said it would be fine to work with far right groups’ because I don’t think we actually said that at all.

The general position here is that we don’t need to work with far right groups and that there is no desire to work with far right groups but if a far right person does listen to a gender critical woman’s speech, that isn’t in itself a bad thing…

because the message ‘don’t trans kids’ and ‘retain single sex spaces, services and sports’ needs to be heard by absolutely bloody everyone, everywhere, as quickly as possible.

And while private, ticketed events were really, really important in 2018, they aren’t that useful any more (still interesting, and still good for meeting other GC people, of course)

Hepwo, well, if anyone of the 29 card carrying fascists in Britain attends a KJK event and then concludes that he shouldn’t let his kid transition - imagine the headline!

No one's working with the far right. There barely even is a far right in this country.

There is a far left, though, and they are way bigger and more organised violent authoritarians. Why the hell would anyone work with them? And yet Real Feminists are constantly trying to work with them and get them on board. Fine, if that's what you feel is the best way forward for your activism. But you don't get to dictate who other women get to speak to.

As I say, it's a load of hypocritical shite.

"Any hint of far right involvement will harm the gender critical cause."

How?

Any hint of far right involvement will harm the gender critical case.

KJK gets accused of flirting with fascism because she once said that she didn't think little girls should be wearing burka, ffs.

You can't organise your activism around what people might say about you or accuse you of. It is ideological purity you're demanding here Lappil, by suggesting that KJK or other women should be completely pure and righteous so that they don't get accused of fascism. Well, they're going to get accused of fascism ANYWAY because that's the leftwaffe's go to move.

Yet somehow, Julie Bindel gets away with going on tour with Milo... which makes the whole 'principled distancing' thing look like a bit of a joke, doesn't it? JB can go on a speaking tour with an outspoken member of the extreme right, but KJK can't even have an event where two people from a conservative website show up and film.

It's hypocritical shite.

Lappil you confuse ‚working with the far right’ and ,not sabotaging one‘s own activism because someone from the far right might support the same thing or vote the same way‘.

I didn’t come on here and start accusing people of working with the far right. I was responding to a lot of people saying that would be fine and anyone who thinks it’s not a great plan is an elitist puritan.

And HoO are not "far right". They're right wing, for sure. But not far right, as in fascist. Freedom of speech is one of their key principles.

I know we've gone over this exhaustively as well, but seems like it's not sinking in.

Plus, as we have also exhaustively established, who gives a fuck if fascists hear women saying "stop transing kids"? It's good if they hear that message!

Yep.
I don’t think any physically healthy kid’s normal pubertal development should be artificially stopped with off label prostate cancer medications,

and this includes any and all of the children of the 29 card carrying Fascists in the UK. AND their grandkids too (as I assume some of the 29 might be getting on a bit what with Fascism not being nearly as current as it once was ‘an ‘all).

Maybe the whole cooked-up fear of entryism is actually projection…

That’s the other thing- the far right are entryists, they will try to latch on to anything which is getting traction and can use for content to bring people into their worldview. The far/hard left are exactly the same, it’s the only way that these tiny political ideologies get a look in. I just don’t understand why we would help them out.

As we established some time ago, there are 29 paid up fascists in the UK. 29. Maybe there's a few more who haven't paid their subs, but only 29 who are fully committed, enough to pay up. They do not have the wit to get more than 29 paid up members. They are not going to be able to infiltrate the women's movement! Even if they were smart enough, there's no way to take over KJK. That's the whole point of her - she's just giving ordinary women a voice. The only way to take her over is to silence her and stop her events - which is what you lot are trying to do!

Plus, as we have also exhaustively established, who gives a fuck if fascists hear women saying "stop transing kids"? It's good if they hear that message!

You seem to be very confused and under the impression that women are somehow unwittingly spreading fascist ideology by holding open events that fascists could, in theory, attend if they wanted to, even though to the best of our knowledge, none have.

Make it make sense!

This is getting ridiculous now. Here's how it goes:

Real Feminists: KJK is aligning herself with the far right!
Normal people: No, she's not.
RF: Well if she's accused of being aligned with the far right, it will damage our cause
NP: You're the one accusing her.
RF: See! Our cause is being damaged.

You are trying to destroy the women's rights movement because it doesn't line up perfectly with what you believe are the right tactics/optics/ideologies. There's no logic, no rational argument, no proof. Just a lot of the above nonsense.

As they say around here, give your head a wobble.

But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

good job no one is then

Also, we’ve spun this one out over what, 3 threads already but…

But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

What Far Right groups are GC women working with?

(you may find it useful to first define ‘Far Right’ and then define ‘working with’)

But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

I don't know, let's have a look. Who is doing so, what groups exactly, what are they working with them on, and what is it achieving?

I can't actually immediately think of anyone doing so - just a lot of instances of people who are baselessly accused of "working with far right groups" for not making the right denouncey noises.

Any real "working with" links seem to rely on at least a couple of degrees of separation, or a very broad definition of "far right". And even then the ones I can think of are mostly US - as you say, it's not really necessary here, so it doesn't happen.

Lappil it isn‘t even about working with far right groups. It is about doing your thing, regardless. And if the issue is so blatantly obvious that a very diverse crowd agrees with your goal, surely you score the f*ing goal instead of getting side-tracked by the question of whether those who support your goal do it for the right reasons.

There’s an optics problem with it, ie lots of people think we’re all far right anyway, and a political interest problem, as in it’s helping people to make the case that feminism has gone too far and needs to be stopped.

Fuck optics, we passed that stage at least 5 years back.

and Feminism HAS gone to far - it’s gone all the way to Sex Work Is Work and Only Fans is A Good Way to Pay for University.

Sometimes you might work with people who disagree to achieve a particular aim. But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

In the UK we don’t need to, there are plenty of mainstream politicians and media who will listen and report on these issues. An increasing amount. Sports bodies are changing their policies, public sector institutions are leaving Stonewall, GIDS is being shut.There’s a long way to go but we are starting to win. We have more political clout, collectively, than far right groups in the UK.

So how does it help to work with them? It definitely doesn’t help make it clear that gender critical women are not actually far right bigots to all these mainstream bodies, politicians and organisations who are starting to listen. It’s not just who agrees on the issue, it’s how do we win the political war as well.

Yes know what you mean it’s not always clear cut. Which is why it’s really important to be clear about what the aims are, what everyone’s reason is for being against gender identity, and what the purpose of working together is. Sometimes it might be pragmatic to work with someone who has a very different view eg if they have traction in the government or media. But fringe far right groups don’t have any benefit, they get all the benefit from leeching off women’s hard work.

That’s the other thing- the far right are entryists, they will try to latch on to anything which is getting traction and can use for content to bring people into their worldview. The far/hard left are exactly the same, it’s the only way that these tiny political ideologies get a look in. I just don’t understand why we would help them out.

This isn’t particularly a criticism of the event in Brighton and definitely not the women who were there or who go to Posie’s stuff. It’s more that we’re starting to win, and so these parasitic groups will try and latch on. We don’t have to let them.

@LangClegsInSpace Thank you so much for the link to Wombs with a View #LetBlackWomenSpeak Special. I agree with so much of what these brilliant women are saying; they say things a lot of people of colour think, but the left doesn't want to listen to us because it doesn't fit their narrative and their perceived ownership of us all.

Lappil Why? If I want to get male-inmate-free women‘s prisons to protect women, why would I care if, say, the deciding vote is from a guy who thinks that idk, he has to save patriarchy from flowery dressed males and doesn‘t give a shit about protecting the female inmates.
The point is to get the male- inmate- free space, to protect women. And if I can get that with the help of this dude, then so be it.

Because this dude on this issue helps our interest.

If I am anti-colonial antiwar left why wouldn’t I build a coalition with some conservative isolationist? My reasons will be totally different from his, but if we can together achieve an end to this he bombing, why would I not work with that guy? Even if he, say, detests that foreign culture that doesn‘t deserve the ‚noble help‘, while I see our intervention as anything but help in the first place?

The point is to achieve the goal! And achieving your goal by definition helps and doesn’t hinder your interest.

I think OP* posted a lot a few years ago in support of TW, had some sort of epiphany (IIRC as a lesbian struggling with the incursion of TW on lesbian spaces) and realised GC women had a point. Which is great, and somewhat proves Posie's point, that if you speak to all women and embrace all women as women, not just the ones that share your political/social/sexual worldview, then we will be much stronger because biological reality transcends all of the other stuff.

*Profuse apologies to the OP if this is a case of mistaken identity.

It’s not ideological purity, it’s being pragmatic and thinking politically. There’s a lot of people who want to end gender bollocks for lots of different reasons. Most of those can coexist and work together without harming each other’s aims. As has been happening so far.

Some aren’t compatible, which yes includes the far right because they only know what women are because they know which half of the human race should be staying at home and having pure European babies or whatever crap they believe.

There’s an optics problem with it, ie lots of people think we’re all far right anyway, and a political interest problem, as in it’s helping people to make the case that feminism has gone too far and needs to be stopped. That’s not ideological purity it’s knowing what your aims and interests are and being pragmatic in getting them done.

It’s about what are gender critical political interests and which kind of allies help or hinder these interests. Any hint of far right involvement will harm the gender critical case.

But it’s impossible to completely distance yourself from people who overlap in views unless you completely jettison the overlapped bit.

And as the overlapped bit is ‘retain single sex spaces, sports and services’, ‘don’t trans children’ and ‘reality matters in law and in language’ jettisoning the overlap is neither possible nor desirable.

Disingenuous critics of radical/GC feminism have been trying to pretend we completely overlap with social conservatives on all points for absolutely ages now.

It’s utter hookum, of course, but our opponents smearing us with it is a somewhat understandable tactic, even if it’s based on a lie.

But it makes absolutely-no-fucking-sense-at-all for The Real Feminists of Brighton to start using this tired old TRA tactic at the other women (and men) in the exact same circle of the Venn diagram as themselves.

They just look like idiots for trying.

The TRAs have been calling as Nazis and Fascists for what, 8-10 years now?

Most of us have stopped worrying about how popular we are amongst the blue hairs at our local CLP meeting and have instead just gotten on with getting shit done.

We aren’t actually catching cooties from the handful of free market, socially conservative brexiteers who also happen to believe that grass is green, water is wet and there are only two sexes.