Men of the far right and the women's movement

hey ClogLady, am I in your inner circle now?

Will you take my word that I am not a fascist? Or will I have to pass the Fascist pig test?

See also: having the spare cash to buy a ticket for a feminist conference (that you have to travel to and stay over at)

or
being able to turn up to a one day open air event for free

(that travels to you and you don’t need a baby sitter for)

Maybe Brighton privilege just hits different to Wigan privilege? 🙃

Being able to write a successful grant proposal seems far more privileged than making t shirts.

But then, most of my favourite bands tour in transit vans and flog t shirts (far more profit in a shirt than in a record, especially if you are totally DIY and don’t have the privilege of management/publishing/distribution deals.

Buying a t shirt seems a lot less privileged than being in a position to just give away the price of a t shirt to a crowdfunder.

But I’m a northerner, so maybe privilege is different down south?

Or has this thread now become about class & privilege too.

Because I reckon that is a road to no where fast considering this forum draws in people from different countries around the world who don't fit in to the UK's fascination of defining class.

No privilege there at all

How strange. As a person who didn't even grow up with indoor plumbing, I knew how to paint a t-shirt with a slogan as a teenager.

No privilege needed at all.

Is this what this is really about?

Anger at facilitating activism by selling objects rather than crowdfunding or grant chasing?

FOJN · Yesterday 18:39

I'm so tempted to get a T shirt printed with "poundshop fascist and proud".

Do it. Maybe Posie will make some and sell them to you and you can show us you mean business.
No privilege there at all

I still think we should train pigs to be fascist sniffers!

And then the crowd can just remain silent while the pig snuffles at the fascist until that fascist leaves. (And hope it is not a retired truffle pig smelling a truffle oil and cheese pizza lunch.)

We can call the process the ‘pig of shame’ and call our pig, ‘fashy hunter’.

@FOJN · Yesterday 18:10

I think one of the reasons why KJK is so appealing to women is that she demands nothing of them.

Oh of course. Kerching😀

To be very fair if someone rocks up to your open air public place and you don’t want then there because you don’t agree with them all you need to say it

go away

and then they go away

fact

dunno why no one tried it

By the way, has Julie Bindel been black listed because of some of her associations in the past?

And I have yet to see anyone who is supporting the ‘denounce’ model answer my repeated question about panels. Should feminists stop talking on a panel where a far right person is there, just in case they might be seen agreeing with that person on one issue?

OR

Should the feminist mention continuously in the panel (what happens if it is edited out of the video version) that they are ‘not aligned in any way’ with that person.

It truly is bizarre that we have reached this point and that those believing Jean Hatchet’s article is covering it in a balanced way, cannot extrapolate out how this is also supposed to work in all situations.

Or is it only open mic situations? And then, only standing for women event situations?

(Hence my question about For Women Scotland rally held soon)

Yes the first two groups were denounced after because it was abundantly clear they were protesting.

sorry. Second two groups.

'It is not difficult to announce to these men, once and for all, that they are not welcome at women’s events. If they turn up, turn them away.'

Let’s turn this to historical events.

Did LGB Alliance ‘turn’ away Ives before Ives used the female toilet while announcing they were doing so on social media? Did prominent feminists rip LGB Alliance’s reputation to shreds because of their neglect?

Did the organisers of Filia not make it clear enough last year? The protesters still turned up. Oh, and the protesters did not get turned away either! Where are the recriminations against Filia for their failure.

Did the organisers of the Labour women’s discussion not make it clear enough that those outside carrying smoke bombs should leave without throwing them in Grenfell. Like the organisers could tell before hand that some group would have the understanding of a gnat that this is not appropriate behaviour.

Yes the first two groups were denounced after because it was abundantly clear they were protesting. But the first?? If Ives didn’t pull that stunt but live streamed instead without causing any fuss at all and just left, what then?

The point is, in an open mic event where any woman is invited to speak, even trans activists (as long as they don’t steal the mic), there are no tickets and it is not possible to actually turn people away who are not breaking a law, how the fuck is this to be done when no one has successfully done it in the past.

Jean Hatchet has made some pretty questionable comments in the past, in this article she is right about some things but completely undermines it through sly implications that the men were in the ‘inner circle’ therefore invited. And that just their live streaming of the event is enough to affirm an ‘association’.

It is slyly done.

Where were the proactive suggestions on actual ways to achieve what these feminists are stating can be done ? Particularly since it has been said to be so very easy. I’ve not seen one yet?

If the article was ‘balanced’ surely we should expect that?

If there is an ability to challenge, any perspective, even fascist ones, has to stand up and make a case for itself.

Absolutely!

I do wish more people on the left had the level of maturity of this guy.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/23/uncomfortable-conversations-campus-zachary-wood

Shutting out points of view ultimately helps the process of entryism more than allowing people to talk.

The former means that it becomes impossible to repudiate ideas once some perspective is given official status. If there is an ability to challenge, any perspective, even fascist ones, has to stand up and make a case for itself.

There is no way to make sure no one ever disagrees with what you think is right. That is a state of affairs that does not exist and if it did it would be a dystopia.

And yes, I mean For Women Scotland.

How are THEY going to monitor their rally? Or are there no far right people in Scotland - they have been evicted already.

So, if we all tut loudly enough, will the men who are far right leave? Should we recommend it for the FWS rally soon to test it out? How should FWS monitor the crowd and find the ones to tut at?

I am sure they are all ears waiting to find out.

And will it then work for extreme trans activists. I think we should all just 'tut' at the beginning and then just before each new speaker. It can be the far right repellent.

And if you think this is ridiculous, you are right. It is. So too is the continuation of the point of view 'one faction of feminists should denounce the far right people who turn up to the freely accessible public meetings in the park'. But it hasn't stopped that shit from being spread repeatedly across the internet with not even one valid suggestion as to how that can be done.

Therefore tutting, or the organiser for each event should just say a disclaimer at the start 'just to be clear, any far right person or trans activist that is here today, 'we are not aligned with you'!'

Or does that need to be every single fucking speaker who is a feminist speaker? Is that how it should be done?

What happens if the bad people splice off that disclaimer..... how will anyone know it was 'denounced'.

It seems that 'denounce' the people who were never invited or embraced in the first place and no one knows who they are is sounding very suspiciously like those posters who pop on here and tell us that it is all very 'both sides' and we should all just have a chat to work it out, why haven't the two sides come to an agreement yet?

The complete lack of logic is stunning.

This ^^^

instead we could simply ‘announce to these men, once and for all, that they are not welcome at women’s events. If they turn up, turn them away.'

Yes, indeed. It's actually quite poetic in a way. Undesirable men crash a women's event; other women pillory said women for not fighting them off effectively.

Case in point however.

Most balanced people are able to say 'I respect and agree with this person's actions and views on this, while disagreeing with them quite significantly in their actions and views about that, and here is why'. Rather than 'I have identified an impurity! Off with their heads!'

Which is not quite so balanced.

This. I used to respect Jean Hatchett, but this has happened so many times now.

If it were so easy to turn away unwelcome men we wouldn’t need to be here on this board posting about how the fuck we get our female only spaces back.

instead we could simply ‘announce to these men, once and for all, that they are not welcome at women’s events. If they turn up, turn them away.'

🙄

Incidentally the one screaming abuse into a baby's face was extremely pure left, being the employee of a Labour MP.

I'm fascinated that it's the job of women trying to address a crowd to identify and turn away those who may be hiding possibly doubtful political affiliations, and these people are apparently more of a deep concern than those screaming 'fascist' into the face of a baby, throwing smoke bombs and carrying knives.

'It is not difficult to announce to these men, once and for all, that they are not welcome at women’s events. If they turn up, turn them away.'

So, they weren't invited, and it's quite possible nobody in the SFW event knew who they are, but somehow it's up to the women busy making speeches to vet all the people in the crowd and if any of them turn out to have unsavoury political connections they are to 'turn them away'?

How, exactly?