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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men of the far right and the women's movement

463 replies

SapphosRock · 28/09/2022 16:12

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

OP posts:
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turbonerd · 29/09/2022 19:25

*But once you have identified the sinners within the crowd polluting Real Feminism Like What Good Feminists Do without bothering and upsetting males, what exactly will happen next?

Are we talking close formation tutting?

Is Posie going to Glare at them?

A pen of some kind?

Removing them from the Christmas card list?

Defriending them on Fb?
Stakes and firewood?*
@ImherewithBoudica

What happens next is a good question. Firstly, the motherfuckers should repent. A tambourine would see to that.

Oh gods, one does Wonder what their Endgame is. What do the Real Feminists really expect of people? Whenever I speak to students about this (feminism) most of them, both women and men, are dismissive and want to make sure the others know they are NOT Feminists or man haters. It is the first thing that happens. But when we talk about the real life aims and don’t call them feminism, most if not all agree totally. It’s just common sense. It is fair and offers opportunities to all.

so The Real Feminists have a real problem with image. And with History it seems. And Herstory too, to be pernickety. Throughout time women have had to put their political differences to the side to make real changes.

You in the UK (or USA) never had much of this beyond the Battle for legal abortion; but in other European countries and certainly in Scandinavia policies regarding maternity pay, Parental pay, access to education and the general workforce were created by women regardless of political affiliation. This was in the 1970s and 1980s. Crucial to this was the creation of readily available and heavily subsidised childcare for children from age 9/12 months until school age 6/7 years. This allowed all women the possibility to join the workforce. In addition, my country had extended parental pay for those who wished to stay at home with their child until their 3rd birthday. After that you could choose nursery (at £2-300 a month for full time cover) or of course you could stay at home if finances allowed.
A generous paternity pay for 3/6 months also came from the late 90-s if I recall correctly.

It is concerning that there is such a divide between The Real Feminists and The Others. «We who have not read Dworkin because we could not be arsed.» and others Others too, of course.
To be honest, I read Beavoir and then about her situation with Sartre, and then about the sexual revolution; and none of that appeals to me.

I was not welcome with the Real Feminists as a student because I pointed out that a women’s experience of pregnancy and birth, and a fair chunk of time after, is vastly different from a man’s. And crucial to the survival of the human race and should perhaps be valued thereafter? Intellect, interests, hobbies and general parking abilities are not sex related, but which role you have in procreation IS. (Difference in physical strength too. I am 4,10. Any teenage boy or man my size could send me flying without much effort).

This is the basis for my firm belief in the facts of material reality. This and the knowledge that throughout all of western History at least, women have mostly had few rights or roles beyond what their biology have afforded them. The right to education, to the money they earned, to property, to their children has not been a given.

ok. Epic rant over.

FOJN · 29/09/2022 19:25

However, from what I can see, it isn't and 'our own' team. It is very, very much an 'us and them' team with the added loveliness of 'them' being able to bully and slyly accuse with no recourse and to disown any that don't agree or join in the performance.

This is the sad truth isn't it. I thought we had a loose coalition of women with broadly similar aims, each group bringing something different to the table.

I don't even think it's a sincere demand for purity, the HoO chap filming at the Brighton event is just a convenient excuse to put the boot into the woman who main strength is raising awareness.

I'm deeply cynical about the motives of the women doing it, why would you cause such a fracture in a movement when we've been making so much progress?

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 18:53

I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Yes. I agree.

However, from what I can see, it isn't and 'our own' team. It is very, very much an 'us and them' team with the added loveliness of 'them' being able to bully and slyly accuse with no recourse and to disown any that don't agree or join in the performance.

I mean, according to 'salty' no one here is a 'real' feminist anyway and no one on MN FWR are doing anything to progress woman and girls.

That's us told!

beastlyslumber · 29/09/2022 18:32

I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Yep. I'm now responding to all emails from Real Feminist groups with a message explaining how disappointed I am in their treatment of PP and the brave women who spoke at her event, and they should take me off their mailing list.

Beautifulvue · 29/09/2022 18:22

Yes thank you Justine for letting reasonable discussion happen here. I have become a premium member because of this

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 18:19

I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Yep.

I still think there is plenty of room for all sorts of feminists, academic, grassroots, professional, newly conscious et al.

But personally I’ve had enough of the bullying ‘lefty’, purity spiral ones.

I’m off the fence and as I was pushed off it, the laws of physics have landed me onto the femalist side (even if I’m not sure how to spell that).

In the never ending word association game inside my own head I’ve been put in mind of the classic Australian tv drama, Prisoner Cell Block H.

I’m sick of being told what to do by The Real Feminist Guards.

Men of the far right and the women's movement
beastlyslumber · 29/09/2022 18:12

Aww @Moresaltnvinegarplease Posie lives rent free in your head, doesn't she? Sad times.

Hepwo · 29/09/2022 18:08

Hepwo · 29/09/2022 10:07

Re whoever said I have a rage about Posie etc ..she annoys me as she has obviously undone any good work that real feminists have done with her shenanighans

We are all ears. Do tell us what has come undone?

No points for any references to pathetic Twitter TRAs bleating about fash.

I'm quoting my own question here for saltyandvinegery.

What has work has been undone?

You said it is obvious but seem to be struggling to tell us.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 18:00

This recent episode is different in that the accusations are unfair, I don't think most posters have put KJK on a pedestal but, speaking for myself, I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

yep.

It has been said time and time again on these current threads.

But anyone saying, this situation is fucked up and there are some people who are stirring it up and some people are outright fucked up bullies, are then declared to be 'Posie worshippers' or 'won't hear a word against Posie'.

No. We are saying some people are just straight out bullies and they can still be doing wonderful things for women, but be fucked up and straight out bullies at the same time.

MrsMidClegs · 29/09/2022 17:53

@ArabellaScott "What you're saying is you need is a 'Real Feminist' T-shirt."

They have their very own Facebook page! Called "Gender Critical Leftist Feminist"group which is moderated by a man. Some women have protested about this and they're kicked off because "it's not that sort of feminist group".

Aka this left wing feminist space is run by men.

FOJN · 29/09/2022 17:36

Moresaltnvinegarplease · 29/09/2022 16:56

"Organising at grass roots level". 🤣
You put stickers (Posie's stickers!) on lampposts. You talk over each other at Speakers' Corner. You buy Posie's t shirts and wear them . No one cares.
Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day helping women escape dreadful fucking situations , helping women source food for their families that is becoming so hard under this horrible Tory government (you lot fucking voted for them most of you !).
Women researching what women need so that we can justify and evidence our aims and findings.
Women questioning why a wee girl in school looks scared or is withdrawn.
Naw but you lot have Speaker's Corner and PP ffs!
Have to dash , some of us have things to do !

JFC I don't think you could fit a fag paper between a TRA and a real feminist™ at the moment.

Why are the real feminists™ so determined to start a fight? These disagreements have always been present in the movement to oppose gender ideology but when I first starting reading MN the women here were careful not to pick sides and posted about how important different approaches and contributions were. This recent episode is different in that the accusations are unfair, I don't think most posters have put KJK on a pedestal but, speaking for myself, I'm fucking furious that it's our own team driving a wedge and I won't back shit stirring.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 17:18

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 17:16

Definitely doesn’t need any more vinegar!

Yes, apparently it is a myth that salt or vinegar sets dye. So I don't think that poster is making their own slogan tees.

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 17:17

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2022 17:12

For all of us 'Unreal Feminists', I'm making a pizza, who wants what?

Truffles???? I have this in my mind right now...

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 17:16

Moresaltnvinegarplease · 29/09/2022 16:56

"Organising at grass roots level". 🤣
You put stickers (Posie's stickers!) on lampposts. You talk over each other at Speakers' Corner. You buy Posie's t shirts and wear them . No one cares.
Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day helping women escape dreadful fucking situations , helping women source food for their families that is becoming so hard under this horrible Tory government (you lot fucking voted for them most of you !).
Women researching what women need so that we can justify and evidence our aims and findings.
Women questioning why a wee girl in school looks scared or is withdrawn.
Naw but you lot have Speaker's Corner and PP ffs!
Have to dash , some of us have things to do !

Oh fabulous!

Another rebuking! Another 'I am a 'real' feminist and care about 'real' feminist issues, yous are all just wannabes and superficial wannabes at that! And you 'talk over each other', wear disgraceful t-shirts, and sticker!'

Again, you are on an anonymous forum and you have made your very own deeply prejudicial views well known.

It is just you who here who has drawn the conclusion that posters are not actively involved in feminist actions in their everyday lives that are wider than this.

Remarkable isn't it? Just how deep your entrenched prejudice goes.... for someone who declared that Kellie Jay is 'meaningless to my life'. Perhaps there is a little too much protesting being done for that to be true.

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 17:16

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2022 17:10

What you're saying is you need is a 'Real Feminist' T-shirt.

Definitely doesn’t need any more vinegar!

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2022 17:12

For all of us 'Unreal Feminists', I'm making a pizza, who wants what?

ArabellaScott · 29/09/2022 17:10

Moresaltnvinegarplease · 29/09/2022 16:56

"Organising at grass roots level". 🤣
You put stickers (Posie's stickers!) on lampposts. You talk over each other at Speakers' Corner. You buy Posie's t shirts and wear them . No one cares.
Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day helping women escape dreadful fucking situations , helping women source food for their families that is becoming so hard under this horrible Tory government (you lot fucking voted for them most of you !).
Women researching what women need so that we can justify and evidence our aims and findings.
Women questioning why a wee girl in school looks scared or is withdrawn.
Naw but you lot have Speaker's Corner and PP ffs!
Have to dash , some of us have things to do !

What you're saying is you need is a 'Real Feminist' T-shirt.

NecessaryScene · 29/09/2022 17:10

Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day

Which is lovely, but you do need the actual political leverage to effectively apply pressure to politicians to actually take the necessary action.

Having all the research to "justify and evidence our aims and findings" is absolutely necessary, but it's far from sufficient.

We need to force politicians to actually give a shit. So raising the profile of the issue among the general public all across the political spectrum so politicians cannot escape the issue is also necessary, and Posie has been the single most effective campaigner doing this in the UK.

So the "real feminists" and the women's activists like Posie need each other.

Posie's not trying to stop them (you?) doing their thing - perhaps this could be reciprocal? [Rainbow optimism emoji...]

ImherewithBoudica · 29/09/2022 17:00

turbonerd · 29/09/2022 16:29

Late as usual, but I just wanted to Ask if instead of a Pig, could you train a domesticated zombie (me) instead. Then the Domesticated Zombie (me) or Domesticated Xombie (me) - which is what my phone wants to call it - could travel with and sniff out all the fascist.
it would be foolproof! On account of the DZ/DX (me) is a fascist herself and would immediately recognise a fellow sinner. 😇😇

I can be bought so easily, you wouldn’t believe it! Free travel, food and lodgings. Oh, and the Odd dodgy T-shirt. That would do me just fine.

I could also sniff out islamophobes. I am highly critical to Islam myself, to all religions actually - I don’t discriminate in my discrimination of religions. Despite being rather fond of, and friends with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Shinto-ists (? is that how…)
I could sniff out any -phobe.

just pick me!!!

But once you have identified the sinners within the crowd polluting Real Feminism Like What Good Feminists Do without bothering and upsetting males, what exactly will happen next?

Are we talking close formation tutting?
Is Posie going to Glare at them?
A pen of some kind?
Removing them from the Christmas card list?
Defriending them on Fb?
Stakes and firewood?

ImherewithBoudica · 29/09/2022 16:57

Moresaltnvinegarplease · 29/09/2022 16:56

"Organising at grass roots level". 🤣
You put stickers (Posie's stickers!) on lampposts. You talk over each other at Speakers' Corner. You buy Posie's t shirts and wear them . No one cares.
Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day helping women escape dreadful fucking situations , helping women source food for their families that is becoming so hard under this horrible Tory government (you lot fucking voted for them most of you !).
Women researching what women need so that we can justify and evidence our aims and findings.
Women questioning why a wee girl in school looks scared or is withdrawn.
Naw but you lot have Speaker's Corner and PP ffs!
Have to dash , some of us have things to do !

Do enjoy icing that cake!

Moresaltnvinegarplease · 29/09/2022 16:56

"Organising at grass roots level". 🤣
You put stickers (Posie's stickers!) on lampposts. You talk over each other at Speakers' Corner. You buy Posie's t shirts and wear them . No one cares.
Real feminists : women quietly working away day to day helping women escape dreadful fucking situations , helping women source food for their families that is becoming so hard under this horrible Tory government (you lot fucking voted for them most of you !).
Women researching what women need so that we can justify and evidence our aims and findings.
Women questioning why a wee girl in school looks scared or is withdrawn.
Naw but you lot have Speaker's Corner and PP ffs!
Have to dash , some of us have things to do !

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 16:36

I dunno, Turbs won’t all us ‘transphobes’ clog your pipes up?

Maybe you can recalibrate the meter so we don’t accidentally set the alarms off?

Fashy T shirts available in Poundland, I hear!

Helleofabore · 29/09/2022 16:35

turbonerd

What happens if your nose falls off? Isn't there a chance of that if you are a zombie?

Otherwise the offer sounds interesting....

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 16:30

I feel exactly the same.

Yes, I too am thankful for Maya and Helen Joyce and Legal Feminist.

lots of fantastic women around to stand in solidarity with, we can get by without the bullies.

Perhaps they’ll realise and apologise eventually.

turbonerd · 29/09/2022 16:29

Late as usual, but I just wanted to Ask if instead of a Pig, could you train a domesticated zombie (me) instead. Then the Domesticated Zombie (me) or Domesticated Xombie (me) - which is what my phone wants to call it - could travel with and sniff out all the fascist.
it would be foolproof! On account of the DZ/DX (me) is a fascist herself and would immediately recognise a fellow sinner. 😇😇

I can be bought so easily, you wouldn’t believe it! Free travel, food and lodgings. Oh, and the Odd dodgy T-shirt. That would do me just fine.

I could also sniff out islamophobes. I am highly critical to Islam myself, to all religions actually - I don’t discriminate in my discrimination of religions. Despite being rather fond of, and friends with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Shinto-ists (? is that how…)
I could sniff out any -phobe.

just pick me!!!

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