Teen terfs, still respecting pronouns of their friends

If people don't believe that it's possible to change sex, then why they are allowing their language to suggest that they do think it's possible?

Because that's what using opposite sex pronouns does. Signal to ourselves and others that this is what's going on.

The article linked above is worth reading

Also, we should always interrogate our own drive to be nice or kind.

It's all about control. An attempt to control others when they feel they have little control - over their parents, their bodies, the world.

Obviously in a perfect world we'd be teaching them about the concept of locus of control, because to have an external locus of control is to be extremely vulnerable.

I’m a middle aged woman. I don’t believe anyone can change sex. I believe the law should only recognize females as women. I still do my best to use preferred pronouns.

I respect pronouns on the basis that others respect my right not to be called cis.

I don't mind people believing what they believe may roll my eyes internally but it's when they start telling me to believe what they believe, problem

So long as the pronoun thing is not enforced collectively I can live with it.

Bigger battles to be fought here

It is difficult with teens and the social contagion aspect we all know is effectively governing this.

My two know, and have always known since the point where they have been old enough to understand, that there are two sexes and you can't change your sex. Like the majority of us with secondary age DCs, they'll know someone who is saying they are the opposite sex and most people I believe are being what they think is polite while not truly believing the pretence is real.

Whether they are doing the right thing in pretending to believe this is debatable. As a previous poster highlighted, it likely isn't actually a long term positive move to endorse something like this as it will end up with a rather rude awakening when entering 'the real world' when it becomes obvious that politeness does not equal reality.

I work with a trans identified individual who I think accepts reluctantly that people don't believe them to have changed sex (although does try to police the language). I have occasionally been boxed in by the situation and had to use 'she' because of the context but I mostly use their chosen name instead. I don't want to lie.

I think its perfectly possible to believe that people can't change sex but still use the pronoun people prefer when referring to them.

Think through the implications of doing that though. On one level you are signalling that you believe they can change sex.

No. You're asking other people to lie to make you comfortable. That's not on. You can't expect the world to change to fit you.

New college, and neutral American name, incidentally -- though I'm still wondering how on earth they'd got to the changing room stage without swapping pronouns, given the zeitgeist.

We had actual tears from one teenager because she had gone out to buy clothes with a new and unmistakably female friend, had happily shared a changing room with new unmistakably female friend, and then found out new friend was nonbinary and went by 'them'.

I'm not sure even the child herself knew coherently whether she was upset that she'd undressed in front of someone of 'different gender', or whether she thought that she'd inadvertently insulted the other girl by knowing she was a girl, or... what, really.

God they make their own lives unnecessarily complicated.

I have this problem with my own teens. My eldest ds is dating someone who identifies as a man - my ds has autism and his mental health has declined massively in the time they've been together and I'm sure that the cognitive dissonance of referring to their partner as 'he' instead of 'she' is having a detrimental effect. His best friend has now said they identify as 'she'.

These are kids we've known for years. I don't want to alienate my kids so I play along as best I can by using 'they' or their chosen names but it's not always easy to used correctly sexed pronouns when you risk your relationships. I too have had conversations with my lot and we and they understand you cannot change sex. They understand that I believe gender ideology has major flaws that have the potential to negatively impact 50% of the population but they're young and protected and can't yet see the wider implications. It's a difficult place to be.

I think I am able to use preferred pronouns in most circumstances. I'm not a good liar, they'd be able to see it was a lie, but so is a lot of politeness.
If pushed too hard I will not. Cannot. Am not capable of. For example, frequent changes; blatant trolling (giant fetish boob teacher); made up pronouns; and gaslighting young kids about their sex.

It was first written on a thread here by Barracker but mn deleted it.

We seem to be able to link to it now though.

The article is very thought provoking, thanks for posting.

Its important to think through the implications of what we do, rather than just fall back on 'it's a courtesy'.

Language matters hugely

The best they will get from me is a they/them

Im leaning towards this myself. I'm much more comfortable with the rejection of one's own sexed pronouns than with the appropriation of someone else's.

And this also has the advantage of not helping to corroborating the TWAW/TMAM untruth.

I keep thinking about Pronouns Are Rohypnol that I read many moons ago. I won't use them, as I know it is lying. I don't know if this is mixed up with my religious beliefs, or whether I am just a black and white thinker.

As the OP says, it's a lie, all of it. Hardly anyone actually passes. Nice of the Twits to set up a straw man implying a normal bit of parenting is creepy, but encouraging young girls to cut healthy tissue from their body is perfectly normal.

The best they will get from me is a they/them, but where possible I will only ever use their name because if I am talking to them they are already in the room, and I don't need pronouns.

Actually apologies, I have misrepresented myself there.

The comment itself isn't misguided, but the whole idea that it's the kind, courteous thing to use preferred pronouns and to not do so is 'shitty' is, I feel.

With teens it's more complicated and the whole thing has gone so far now, I'm not sure what the best thing to do, but with adults, I don't think this is a kinder approach in the long run

Everyone can tell; there's no such thing as "passing" in real life, only with filters.

See, this is why I'm not convinced it's 'kind' or 'courteous' to use preferred pronouns. Ultimately it's supporting an illusion that can't be sustained.

And for the ones who buy into it, who believe they can in all meaningful ways change sex, how must it feel to find out that you can't?

That you almost certainly won't pass and though people are cheerleading TWAW and TMAM now, that may not apply when it comes to your dating pool (I'm looking at you LOJ)? The tales out there from detransitioners are heartbreaking.

Of course teens are a complicated question, but I feel comments like this are terribly misguided

I don’t want to cause any further mental anguish for someone who might be genuinely struggling

Hadn't read full thread.

Of course people tell white lies all the time. I'd probably use preferred pronouns to someones face out if basic politeness but it would impress me more if they didn't give a fuck what pronoun was used.

I think when you've had kids of your own and dealt with the demands of toddler / preschool years you find it wearing to have to to pretendies with grown adults too.

Here's some research somewhere around how teens are the most cohesive age group and won't go against the status quo. They need each other more and so tend to be more sjw esque. As you age you become more individual and able to value your own opinions with out needing validation from others. Teens are hyper sensitive to judgment especially from peers. Iirc it also translates to younger people being more left leaning and becoming more centrist or conservative as they age (generally speaking! Everyone is an individual of course)

Evolutionary speaking it would have helped social groups bond and work as a team at an age when strength and fitness is good.

There's always outliers but I've certainly found age has made me more able to challenge and query the status quo! And say no... at university in the first couple of years I lived with people I eventually realised I really didn't have anything in common with because I simply needed to be in a tribe.

I know people who identify as trans or non-binary, and while I secretly roll my eyes a bit at a few of them as it seems to be a bit faddy for some, I do tend to keep my own views to myself as I don’t want to cause any further mental anguish for someone who might be genuinely struggling.

It doesn’t harm me to have my private opinion whilst still affording people the courtesy of calling them whatever they want to be called. Deliberately ‘misgendering’ someone when they’ve told me they identify as XYZ just because it doesn’t align with my own views would be a shitty thing to do.

Isn't it interesting how my concern and upset over the school's treatment of a distressed trans identified child is ignored completely by these twitterings.

So typical. In reality they couldn't care less.

I also note none of these brave warriors have ventured on here to join the debate. Perhaps they don't feel 'safe' 🙄