Teen terfs, still respecting pronouns of their friends

I mangle language so as not to use he/she pronouns at all if I can avoid doing so. It's become almost like a game.

So in an ice breaker I might say: 'this is Sarah, who comes from Stratford, has a cat, and whose favourite fruit is bananas'.

And yeah, the whole game is bananas. But I no longer want to compromise on my principles; had enough of humouring this nonsense. No matter what you do, it's never enough. On the other hand, if I 'misgender' someone or use pronouns they don't like (it's hard enough remembering everyone's name at the beginning of every year, much less other identifying information) I could be disciplined or fired for it.

Given a refusal to use someone's stipulated pronouns is against my organization's policy, I try to get around it without using the 'hot potato' ones.

As for xi/xer - well, fuck that.

This was such a thoughtful thread from nearly a year ago. I wonder how much things have changed? There's certainly a greater awareness of the harm social transitioning can do but I suspect the atmosphere in schools is still as intimidating for those who believe in facts rather than fantasies. And do twitterers still obsessively monitor this board ? Maybe not as much since the
"the resistance" as PomegranateOfPersephone, calls it, has broken out into much of the mainstream media?

And as this is about teenagers, here's a clinical psychologist's take on the harms of agreeing with a teenager that they're the opposite sex to reality:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

Yes, like that terribly sad recent video of a young woman who fully and irreversibly transitioned to appear as male ( and does visually look male) and eight years after transitioning is basically crying about how desperately lonely they are, and they are unable to make male friendships ( presumably because she isn’t able to interact or connect with men as a man). And why didn’t anyone tell her how lonely it was as a man, and she desperately misses woman to woman friendships.

I saw another video by a young woman two years into testosterone transition and looking male who also said they had made no male friends ( as a man) and was realizing that they could not play football now, ( their passion) as the male game is so aggressive, and it was difficult for them to get a straight girlfriend (vulva still in tact).

These young people are being sold a lie that being a man or woman is about superficial surgery and hormones and inner feelings and nothing else. And then finding the rest of the world, outside of the lobby groups, doesn’t agree.

Having said that, it’s not up to teens to change this. It’s the adults running the lobby groups I blame for selling this lie.

Control the way people speak,control the way people think.

I do not use pronouns, preferred or otherwise. I use names. I will use any name you choose as I don't believe collections of letters should be gendered. In reality calling a man Daisy or Dave is no different, much as how I don't see pink as a gendered colour.

As for the youth, it is changing in senior schools.

That Reddit post is heartbreaking. The poor lad really seems to believe he genuinely is a girl. He has so many more disappointments ahead of him. God damn the adults who have led children into this misery.

You can be coerced. For example, if you don't use them and then are reported to HR at work, or thrown off a course.

It’s just words.

'Woman' is just a word. What does it matter if it has come to mean anything?

Also, words are how people are controlled.

pronouns are not a neutral act.

dave in accounts announces he’s transitioning, wants to be known as Davina and be she/her - why not it’s the kind thing to do right?

davina presents as a stereotypical woman but is obviously still a man. They know want to use the women’s toilets - after all they’re a she now aren’t they? There are 2 Muslim women on the staff team who feel uncomfortable about this fir religious reasons but the company is full on TWAW & colleagues don’t back them up telling them to be kind

Davina has joined the woman’s network designed to increase women’s promotion prospects - after all they’re she/her so it’s ok right. At the end of the year Davina takes one of two spaces on an internal course for women from across the UK. It means a biological woman misses out but Davina is she/her so it’s fine right?

once you start calling a man she/her & affirming that they’re a woman because they ‘feel’ like one then where do you draw the line and more importantly how? I mean you’ve spent all this time affirming them

lying that a man is a woman is not a neutral act, it actively harms women. I won’t do it

Before even clicking on that link, I knew it would be Ann Coates. A deeply, deeply unpleasant person.

Can you be forced to use incorrect pronouns?

Why wouldn’t you? It’s just words.

Have a read of the article linked above and you'll start to see.

But I've never found the need to be that absolute in dealing with the (few) transpeople I've encountered in daily life

At an individual level, that sounds reasonable, but in aggregate, the messages we are communicating to people are not factually true. Then reality hits and the whole thing comes crashing down. These young people are being set up for a fall.

I’m a terf by a lot of peoples standards but I respect the pronouns of trans people. Why wouldn’t you? It’s just words. If a friend changed their first name would you refuse to accept it because it’s not the facts on their birth certificate? Non of the real trans people I know deny biological reality they know they are trans and I’m happy to respect their right to live how they want. We need legislation so we can protect ourselves against the odd weirdo but most people are just people.

In regards to the university reddit, this is really when reality hits.

Schools and medical professionals have had to affirm the child, all school pupils are threatened with punishment for misgendering. No one is allowed to say that the emperor has no clothes on.

Suddenly at university, with the misconception that it will be a woke place, when in fact some noisy students make it seem like that publicly, but the majority won't be because it will be a true reflection of society. Men are not going to be falling over themselves for a transgender girl, and will probably try to avoid that person altogether.

Some of the other responses are still in denial, that it is the fault of parents that students are not sexually interested in feminine presenting men, and that once students are given time they will see the light and suddenly treat all trans people as their desired sex.

Social media is not reality.

Manners will help. Don’t use pronouns in front of the person you are talking about.

I don’t agree that children can’t be heroic, but confess to have told mine to be careful.

I've read it, it's a good article. But I've never found the need to be that absolute in dealing with the (few) transpeople I've encountered in daily life.

I thought we were talking about what pronouns one might choose to use?

We are. That is what pronouns do, indicate what sex you think the person is. The article posted upthread is very informative on this, go have a read of it.

I can't think of many circumstances in which social contact with a transperson would need me to state what sex I believed them to be. I thought we were talking about what pronouns one might choose to use?

I appear to be blocked too. I doubt that I'm missing anything worth reading.

I mean, if someone wants you to pretend they're black because it 'makes them more comfortable' should that be something we're open to also?

You're looking well" "You can't really tell its false" "Bald suits you" "Yes I think his walking is improving " "Well done Archie that was really good/fast"

You really can't tell the difference between those and 'you're a biological woman'? Seriously?

@TheKeatingFive oh of course we do!

"You're looking well" "You can't really tell its false" "Bald suits you" "Yes I think his walking is improving " "Well done Archie that was really good/fast"

I mean if you don't want to, then fine, I don't think you should be compelled to. I just don't think it's always such a huge problem.

Children have been physically attacked for being openly gender critical. I wouldn’t suggest you put your children at risk. They need to smile and nod and pretend in order to keep themselves safe.

People can chose to socially lie to make others more comfortable, let's face it most of us do it all the time.

Not in a way that denies biological facts though.

We lie about opinions and subjective stuff, 'that's a lovely dress' sort of thing. We don't deny scientific reality.