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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Owen Jones's video

196 replies

SecretTransTwitterEngineer · 17/09/2022 07:26

Owen Jones posted a response to a person on Twitter who had suggested that he needed to have engaged in a relationship with a trans man to be supportive of trans issues, but turned into a commentary about anti-trans activism generally.

Video

As a straight trans woman in the UK who knows dozens of gay trans men and women, it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that gay trans ppl are attempting to force non-trans gay women and men. This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame non-trans gay women and men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this - it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 17/09/2022 14:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 13:55

No, I assume the OP is what we would think of as a gay biologically male person. Or bisexual but only attracted to female people with a masculine gender identity.

It's not clear at all.

In trans ideology, 'straight' means attracted to someone with a gender identity of the opposite gender.

So a 'straight transwoman' is someone who is male, identifies as transgender, and is attracted to people of either sex as long as they identify as a man. So they would be attracted to men who identify as men and women who identify as men. They wouldn't be attracted to another man who identifies as a woman, or anyone of either sex who doesn't have a gender identity.

So to a non-believer in gender identity, a 'straight transwoman' is a bisexual male who identifies as transgender.

Perhaps the OP will return at some point and explain if I've got that wrong.

Snoozer11 · 17/09/2022 14:02

You can't identify your way into being straight.

WanOvaryKenobi · 17/09/2022 13:59

SecretTransTwitterEngineer · 17/09/2022 07:26

Owen Jones posted a response to a person on Twitter who had suggested that he needed to have engaged in a relationship with a trans man to be supportive of trans issues, but turned into a commentary about anti-trans activism generally.

Video

As a straight trans woman in the UK who knows dozens of gay trans men and women, it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that gay trans ppl are attempting to force non-trans gay women and men. This appears to be divorced from reality - in fact I see far more (mostly straight) 'gender critical' activists attempting to shame non-trans gay women and men for being attracted (or being potentially attracted to) trans ppl.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this - it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

"straight trans woman"

What a lark. You are a homosexual male.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 13:56

But I could be wrong - who tf knows.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 13:55

No, I assume the OP is what we would think of as a gay biologically male person. Or bisexual but only attracted to female people with a masculine gender identity.

Datun · 17/09/2022 13:40

roarfeckingroarr · 17/09/2022 10:35

So you're attracted to women? Because your sex is male and you're straight, although you identify as a woman? I don't understand?

Yes the op is attracted to females, by their own definition. Females complete with a vagina, as long as they say they aren't one.

TheKeatingFive · 17/09/2022 13:39

Under the ridiculous rules of the TRA ideology, you end up either a transphobe or a homophobe. You can't be neither.

Let's call it the LOJ conundrum

InstantMagic · 17/09/2022 13:29

Does anyone outside of this weird gender ideology Twitter bubble know what the fuck any of this means?@OP.

Get your heads out of your arses, for heaven’s sake.

MrsJamin · 17/09/2022 13:26

So very tiresome for someone clearly with an antagonistic agenda signing up to Mumsnet, telling us all off for wrong think in the most confusing word-salad opening post and then not coming back to even try to answer any of the questions asking "What are you on about?" 🙄

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 17/09/2022 13:26

Thank you waveyhair

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 17/09/2022 13:24

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 11:56

Seconded Flowers

And again 💐

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 12:59

Do you mean the same sex?

Rainbowshit · 17/09/2022 12:56

It's utterly homophobic to say that people who are solely attracted to the opposite sex regardless of gender presentation should shut up and essentially go back in the closet.

ImherewithBoudica · 17/09/2022 12:51

As a straight trans woman in the UK who knows dozens of gay trans men and women,

Why did we need that qualifier?

As many pp have pointed out, no one knows what on earth a gay tm/gay tw is for all intents and purposes now, it's been confused beyond anyone's time and capacity to try to make sense of.

it does feel that 'gender critical' activists are constantly attempting to push the idea that gay trans ppl are attempting to force non-trans gay women and men. This appears to be divorced from reality

About ten minutes on google ought to fix this naivety. And perhaps considering that your knowing dozens of TQ+ who choose to self identify as gay, it's not surprising you're not seeing it, since I doubt anyone who says 'no' or has experienced this would be in your circle of friends.

I would ask said activists to stop attempting to 'de-gay' gay women and men like this

In a word, no. I would ask said TR activists to stop attempting to push the idea that 'homosexual' no longer means same sex attracted but just whatever the current fashionable meaning happens to be this week, and that all homosexuals need to abandon their sexual orientation and submit to the coercion to lose their words, definitions, groups, and deal with come ons from those of the opposite sex who feel entitled to sexual access to them. Hence people like Rachel McKinnon talking about lesbians 'learning to cope' with unwanted straight sex. And that their sexual orientation is a form of racism. And that lesbians are 'selfishly prioritising their own orgasms' over providing sex to distressed TW in need.

I mean how bloody awful do your attitudes have to be towards homosexuals and women before you clock that you're not on a good path here?

it's utterly homophobic and it's wrong.

That's another borrowed, colonised word, and that is not what is wrong with this very, very messed up situation.

Essentially this is a whole lot of whining about homosexual people saying no and having boundaries.

daringdoris · 17/09/2022 12:48

That was a brilliant post SwordToFlamethrower, gave me goosebumps.
Very moving.

Moonatics · 17/09/2022 12:21

Wow, sword.
Fantastic and very moving post.

Mummyoflittledragon · 17/09/2022 12:10

@SwordToFlamethrower
That is an incredible post. I am so sorry for what you went through. Flowers

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 17/09/2022 12:03

So where are all the people who normally post on this board telling us we are all wrong, and arguing endlessly that pink is blue?

Surely this can’t be too complicated even for their certainty?

OldCrone · 17/09/2022 12:02

SwordToFlamethrower · 17/09/2022 11:58

I accidentally used "he", how do I edit my post? I don't want it to be deleted

MNHQ have previously said that a TW who commits a sexual crime can be referred to using correctly sexed pronouns, so your post should be safe.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 12:01

Post it again using "they", also I don't think MN would delete you for using male pronouns about the male who sexually assaulted you.

SwordToFlamethrower · 17/09/2022 11:58

I accidentally used "he", how do I edit my post? I don't want it to be deleted

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/09/2022 11:56

Seconded Flowers

DameMaud · 17/09/2022 11:56

SwordToFlamethrower · 17/09/2022 11:46

Wow that video.
On the face of it. It took me back to when I was a compliant little lib fem, around 2014-15.

Those poor marginalised trans women who have handed in their winning lottery ticket of being a male to become marginalised and suffer the same appalling misogyny. Because they hate toxic masculinity SO MUCH, hate their seed bodies SO MUCH, they want to align with women's values and stand with us to fight patriarchy. I was so moved by that idea, honestly, that it brought me to tears. They deserve our love and protection, they deserve all the solidarity.

I sought trans people out just so I could offer them my support and love.

I met a TW who worked in a cafe. Went out of my way to be kind. We became friends! We were invited to a mutual friend's Halloween party. We were chatting, laughing and I was having a great time.

Later that night that same tw sexually assaulted me.

I was so confused. What went wrong? I confronted my tw friend and demanded why. Tw said he thought my friendliness was actually flirting. I asked why because I am straight and I had already made that clear when tw said they were a lesbian. Tw apologised and said needed to work on their male entitlement.

I forgave the friend. But something felt off. Tw and I continued to be friends and was telling me a story of a trip to the gym where tw used a female changing room. My friend was pre op. Laughed when describing how the women were deeply uncomfortable when they saw tw penis. Called the women "crusty old crones".

A few months later, I found out Karen White, the convicted rapist, also with an intact penis was going to be transfered to the women's prison. I shared the article about it on Facebook, expressing concern that this tw may in fact try to rape the inmates.

I was immediately shut down and cast out by some of my closest friends. Days later, Karen White sexually assaulted women in the prison.

I had also befriended another tw, also with an in tact penis. This one was in a relationship with a woman. They claimed to be lesbians. I asked how this was so because my understanding was that lesbians have female bodies. It was explained to me that lesbian means attracted to feminine qualities and obsession with genitals is a fetish and transphobic.

At that point I had a nervous breakdown because everything I thought I knew was turned upside down.

It took me nearly a year to process and assess what I was being told by transwomen and what my heart and eyes were telling me. My own past sexual assaults came back and I was thrust into very severe PTSD. I stopped going out, I quit the gym, I became a shadow of myself.

I was a proud feminist and I was being called a bigot. My life was about championing minorities and yet I myself was now being called a bully. But my experiences of men and sexual assault, rape, domestic violence and gaslighting were in conflict with being a trans rights champion. I am now the perpetrator?

How can I be?

Every day, the news showed trans women demanding access to rape shelters, prisons, women and girl's spaces.

I finally realised and accepted I had just been wrong and women and girls are experiencing a new wave of misogyny and oppression. Our very language is under threat. I am pregnant at the moment and in maternity, I am being asked to replace woman or mother with pregnant or birthing person. It is seen as bigotry and transphobic to use the word woman.

Everywhere I look, women are attacked and being silenced.

So no Owen Jones. You are wrong. This isn't the square root of fuck all to do with me.

The very legal definition of woman is under attack. Our rights are under attack like never before. Who we can say no to sex with is under attack. Our sexual boundaries, our right to define ourselves legally and medically under attack.

You're the radicalised bigot. You are cruel, you are heartless. You sir are a deeply misogynistic entitled male. And your video has only confirmed my position.

I stand with same sex attracted people. I stand for the safety and dignity of women and girls. I stand for defending and strengthening women's sex based rights. Now till the day I die I will stand for that.

Your post is incredible @SwordToFlamethrower . So powerfully articulated. Thank you.
So sorry you had those awful experiences.
I wish people like OJ could see what you've written, though I doubt they would really hear it sadly...

ThickCutSteakChips · 17/09/2022 11:56

He doesn't have any argument, so his tactic is to dismiss everyone who disagrees with him on this subject as rabid, far right, bigoted 'monsters'. If he had an actual argument he wouldn't need to do this would he? He could just say 'i think you're wrong, this is why, but you are of course entitled to ypur opinion'.

He still has not addressed whether or not he agrees or disagree with the Stonewall statement about excluding trans people from your dating pool based on the fact they are not of the sex you are attracted to being prejudiced. It's all 'of course you can choose who you sleep with' obfuscation, because he thinks that will do the trick.

As an aside, I can't lie, I am kind of here for his transformation from skinny, weedy, geeky perpetual to vest wearing, chain wearing, six pack toting hunk! Its fascinating, I wonder whats behind it!

TheKeatingFive · 17/09/2022 11:51

Great post SwordToFlamethrower

👏👏👏