Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are pronouns & pronoun policing really that new?

58 replies

secular111 · 11/09/2022 19:11

I've been speculating about this recently. I watched an old episode of Upstairs Downstairs from the 1970s, set in Georgian England between 1903 and 1930. I used to watch Downton Abbey. I've also followed the sci-fi series Bridgerton, set an alternate Regency era (see Bridgerton' is an alternate universe fantasy that sci-fi fans will love).

Watching those shows it's easy-to-see that pronouns really aren't new. Indeed individuals, certainly of the upper classes expected to be addressed by the 'lower' classes in a particular and set manner, at least until the 1960s. Heaven help a parlour-maid if she addressed her mistress with the wrong pronoun, and in Dickens novels, pronoun usage is manifested as a means to ensure the lower classes know precisely who their 'betters' are.

So is insistence on pronoun usage really that new? I posit that it isn't. Whilst demanding pronouns might have declined over the last few decades, I believe the current younger generation are demanding and indeed attempting to enforce their return in an effort to distinguish between themselves and the 'lower classes'.

Ok, it might be snobbery, but it isn't really the New Snobbery that David Skelton refers-to in his book. Rather it is simply a return to an expression of entitlement that was strictly-enforced throughout British history and elsewhere in-the-past.

I doubt that those who insist that pronoun usage be enforced and if necessary policed would be grateful to see acknowledgement that they are simply echoing the classism and privileged entitlement expectation of past centuries. Nonetheless I think such people should receive recognition that they are resurrecting a past tradition that is well-documented in British history.

OP posts:
secular111 · 11/09/2022 19:52

I was rather thinking of pronouns as replacing noun usage. Nonetheless it has been noted, particularly by Dr. Dennis Baron (he/him/his) from the University of Illinois, who has written on the subject, and notes how pronouns are evolving into titles, taking the place of nouns;

“The pronoun is becoming like an honorific, like a title. This is how you refer to me,”
(Tracing the history of gender-neutral pronouns)

Nouns like 'Sir' and 'Miss' that some of us were required to use at school can be regarded as pronouns (Are honorifics like "Sir" and "Miss" pronouns in English?

So I reckon there is still cause to note that the current focus on pronouns and the insistence on their usage by some, really isn't that new. In-the-past it wasn't unusual to expect that a servant or 'lower class' individual would be getting into trouble for using the wrong honorific, or noun (or in some cases, pronoun, like 'Sir or 'Miss') whilst in our modern world, the same circumstances can be seen with the perception that an incorrect pronoun has been used, or that insufficient deference hasn't been made.

OP posts:
O11 · 11/09/2022 19:50

What are you talking about?

ValancyRedfern · 11/09/2022 19:48

Eh?

TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 19:46

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_honorifics

TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 19:45

Interesting thought, but yes, I suspect you are mixing up pronouns and honourifics?

The only time anyone questioned me re: pronouns in the 70s/80s/90s/00s was when my Nan admonished my rudeness with a pithy ‘who’s she? The cat’s mother?’

The same wasn’t true of ‘he’ of course, but I suspect that’s because a he without a name was supposed to be ‘He’ (aka God) and thus not something to be rude about.

SirVixofVixHall · 11/09/2022 19:19

Eh? Using pronouns in front of someone was, and remains rude.
Do you mean titles ? Which are nothing to do with pronouns.

bellinisurge · 11/09/2022 19:19

Do you mean ma'am and sir? Those are nouns.

Chaotica · 11/09/2022 19:17

Pronouns? Which? How? Please give an example. I can think of no cases of specific pronouns being used in these eras which aren't sex based.

Are you sure you don't mean that certain terms of address were required (like 'ma'm')? Which isn't a pronoun. I might just have missed what you mean.