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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are pronouns & pronoun policing really that new?

58 replies

secular111 · 11/09/2022 19:11

I've been speculating about this recently. I watched an old episode of Upstairs Downstairs from the 1970s, set in Georgian England between 1903 and 1930. I used to watch Downton Abbey. I've also followed the sci-fi series Bridgerton, set an alternate Regency era (see Bridgerton' is an alternate universe fantasy that sci-fi fans will love).

Watching those shows it's easy-to-see that pronouns really aren't new. Indeed individuals, certainly of the upper classes expected to be addressed by the 'lower' classes in a particular and set manner, at least until the 1960s. Heaven help a parlour-maid if she addressed her mistress with the wrong pronoun, and in Dickens novels, pronoun usage is manifested as a means to ensure the lower classes know precisely who their 'betters' are.

So is insistence on pronoun usage really that new? I posit that it isn't. Whilst demanding pronouns might have declined over the last few decades, I believe the current younger generation are demanding and indeed attempting to enforce their return in an effort to distinguish between themselves and the 'lower classes'.

Ok, it might be snobbery, but it isn't really the New Snobbery that David Skelton refers-to in his book. Rather it is simply a return to an expression of entitlement that was strictly-enforced throughout British history and elsewhere in-the-past.

I doubt that those who insist that pronoun usage be enforced and if necessary policed would be grateful to see acknowledgement that they are simply echoing the classism and privileged entitlement expectation of past centuries. Nonetheless I think such people should receive recognition that they are resurrecting a past tradition that is well-documented in British history.

OP posts:
BellaAmorosa · 11/09/2022 21:15

This is hilarious 😂!
Put this on Twitter, I dare you.

But well done to @TheClogLady for working out the source of the OP's misunderstanding.

secular111 · 11/09/2022 21:02

TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 20:50

Actually, I suspect Secular has misinterpreted the doctor’s work and decided that as modern day pronoun culture might well be functioning like class-based honourifics of old, that means that honourifics and pronouns are actually the same and you can use one term to describe both? So it’s not the Doc who doesn’t know what a pronoun is, it’s just Secular

From the article linked the Doc seems have done a historical deep dive on the gender neutral pronoun and decided that today’s ‘preferred pronouns’ are used less like actual pronouns (generalised short cuts describing sex) and more like honourifics (specific fancy titles describing how fancy and not boring the person is).

Hang-on. Haven't you just made my case for me?

And with a good summary too.

‘preferred pronouns’ are used less like actual pronouns (generalised short cuts describing sex) and more like honourifics

If it was supposed to be a criticism, then I'll take it and say you expressed my argument better than I did initially.

Thank you.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 20:50

Actually, I suspect Secular has misinterpreted the doctor’s work and decided that as modern day pronoun culture might well be functioning like class-based honourifics of old, that means that honourifics and pronouns are actually the same and you can use one term to describe both? So it’s not the Doc who doesn’t know what a pronoun is, it’s just Secular

From the article linked the Doc seems have done a historical deep dive on the gender neutral pronoun and decided that today’s ‘preferred pronouns’ are used less like actual pronouns (generalised short cuts describing sex) and more like honourifics (specific fancy titles describing how fancy and not boring the person is).

Pixiedust1234 · 11/09/2022 20:49

wtf am I reading? Brigerton is not sci fi for a start. As for pronouns, please go read a dictionary, and put down the glue 😅

secular111 · 11/09/2022 20:46

TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 20:13

I do agree that the modern day pronoun police might well be employing a similar social mechanism to making the help curtsy (reinforcing superiority) but you need a better way of explaining it (as blithely mixing up nouns and pronouns and expecting everyone else to accept your newly defined version of pronouns is a bit too pot/kettle-black for my liking).

Good summary there.

If I determine to use the m'lady/mistress instead of she/her

As in;

She went to the library.

became

m'lady went to the library.

or

I think it was hers

became

I think it was mistresses

Would that not be enabling a pronoun to be used as a honorific (a noun) too?

As in;

'I will be referred-to as m'lady'

or

'You will refer to me as mistress'

OP posts:
WhereYouLeftIt · 11/09/2022 20:44

secular111 · 11/09/2022 20:21

I love this comment! When even the quote makes it clear that this particular academic certainly does know. And what's more he has written a book on the subject.

There's a lot of shit books filled with misinformation out there already. Did we really need another one? Really?

sorrynotathome · 11/09/2022 20:44

Taking an American’s opinion on anything to do with the English language is a bad idea.

VestofAbsurdity · 11/09/2022 20:40

secular111 · 11/09/2022 20:21

I love this comment! When even the quote makes it clear that this particular academic certainly does know. And what's more he has written a book on the subject.

Oh my!!! He wrote a book, that must make him absolutely correct then after all no-one has ever written a book that is demonstrably proven as incorrect have they?

No, still wrong, still mixing up nouns, pronouns and the use of titles.

picklemewalnuts · 11/09/2022 20:33

What about thee, thou, thy, thine?

You'd be in trouble for being over familiar if you 'thee''d the Mrs!

O11 · 11/09/2022 20:24

secular111 · 11/09/2022 20:21

I love this comment! When even the quote makes it clear that this particular academic certainly does know. And what's more he has written a book on the subject.

Dr Dennis Baron is that you?

TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 20:23

secular111 · 11/09/2022 20:21

I love this comment! When even the quote makes it clear that this particular academic certainly does know. And what's more he has written a book on the subject.

Perhaps Dr Baron is unfamiliar with British English and failed to have his text properly vetted by an appropriate sensitivity reader?

bellinisurge · 11/09/2022 20:23

They aren't pronouns. They just aren't.

TheMarzipanDildo · 11/09/2022 20:22

I suppose title policing was a form of social control, just like pronoun policing is now. When I call my female NB friend ‘they’, I’m am going along with the fiction that she is somehow different from me, even though I know it’s not really true. Which I suppose might have been how a lot of servants felt about using titles for people they know are no better than them in no way besides the title itself.

secular111 · 11/09/2022 20:21

VestofAbsurdity · 11/09/2022 20:06

You and Dr Dennis Baron of Illinois have a shaky grasp on grammar and don't appear to know what a pronoun is, what a noun is or honourific titles and how and why they are used.

I love this comment! When even the quote makes it clear that this particular academic certainly does know. And what's more he has written a book on the subject.

OP posts:
ControversialOpening · 11/09/2022 20:20

Sorry, my examples weren’t great. I was trying to use ‘sir’ or ‘miss’ in place of ‘he’ or ‘she’.

O11 · 11/09/2022 20:16

Honorifics could be used as pronouns if they were actually replacing a pronoun

Eg Would Sir like to follow me this way
Rather than
Would you like...

But that's not what the OP is talking about

TheMarzipanDildo · 11/09/2022 20:15

*ahem, “teacher’s name” (I’m not going to mess up my grammar on a grammar thread)

TheMarzipanDildo · 11/09/2022 20:14

ControversialOpening · 11/09/2022 20:10

Titles such as ‘sir’ and ‘miss’ are sometimes used as pronouns in schools:

Sir told us to make sure we were on time
Miss said we had to have homework in for tomorrow

I guess that’s the sort of thing the op is getting at.

Are they pronouns in that situation or are they more akin to an abbreviation of the teachers name? So nouns?

TheClogLady · 11/09/2022 20:13

I do agree that the modern day pronoun police might well be employing a similar social mechanism to making the help curtsy (reinforcing superiority) but you need a better way of explaining it (as blithely mixing up nouns and pronouns and expecting everyone else to accept your newly defined version of pronouns is a bit too pot/kettle-black for my liking).

O11 · 11/09/2022 20:12

ControversialOpening · 11/09/2022 20:10

Titles such as ‘sir’ and ‘miss’ are sometimes used as pronouns in schools:

Sir told us to make sure we were on time
Miss said we had to have homework in for tomorrow

I guess that’s the sort of thing the op is getting at.

Referring to somebody in the 3rd person doesn't mean you are using pronouns.

Substitute "Sir" for "Mr Jones" - that's not a pronoun

ControversialOpening · 11/09/2022 20:10

Titles such as ‘sir’ and ‘miss’ are sometimes used as pronouns in schools:

Sir told us to make sure we were on time
Miss said we had to have homework in for tomorrow

I guess that’s the sort of thing the op is getting at.

VestofAbsurdity · 11/09/2022 20:06

You and Dr Dennis Baron of Illinois have a shaky grasp on grammar and don't appear to know what a pronoun is, what a noun is or honourific titles and how and why they are used.

WhereYouLeftIt · 11/09/2022 20:04

"Nouns like 'Sir' and 'Miss' that some of us were required to use at school can be regarded as pronouns"

Nope. They're nouns. They were nouns in the past, and they still are.

Saynotothefishtank · 11/09/2022 19:57

Yabu.

CloseYourEyesAndSee · 11/09/2022 19:56

I don't think you know what a pronoun is