Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I went to a talk about trans issues.

95 replies

FrankTheThunderbird · 09/09/2022 18:59

Disclaimer... if I accidentally use the wrong language I apologise. I'm trying my best. And I'll be using the pronouns we were asked to use.

It was more balanced than I expected. But still biased, and all questions had to be handed in before the session and pre- vetted.

The panel was led by someone who didn't say how they identify. (If they did I didn't hear) but in the 'old days' would be a butch lesbian. There was an enby, afaik they were born female, mentioned using he/him at one point before becoming they/them. 2 TW. And a TM.

They talked about their journey to become who they are now. It was interesting. No mention from the older TW about how her then wife coped/felt other than they got divorced as a result. I felt sorry for them all, it sounds like they had some bad times (so have I so that's not exclusive to trans people, but I have empathy)

They mentioned sharing pronouns and said you should never feel you have to, but also don't do the jokey "well obviously my pronouns are..."

So far so good.

Then we had

Sex and Gender are the same thing. Feminists pretend they aren't so they can deny our existence.

Sex isn't fixed or binary because of seahorses. Not only do male seahorses carry the eggs, they also fertilise them themselves. (No idea if that's true. DS said if it is are seahorses technically clones?).
I wanted to ask why that's relevant to humans, I mean seahorses can breathe underwater and I can't so we aren't the same. But we weren't allowed.

One of the questions was from a 12 year old who thought they were trans. The answer from one of the TW was "tell your parents. If they don't believe you I can't say what i recommend as it's illegal". If that isn't a veiled recommendation to threaten self harm/suicide I don't know what is. Angry

And some things I didn't fully understand. One of the TW kept mentioning a book, should have made a note of the title, about trans children in history, or the medicalisation of them. Or something. I couldn't work out why experimental surgery in the past,which we don't do on children any more, was therefore meant to be a sign that trans people exist. Or something.
All the books they mentioned were firmly on the side of TWAW, nothing from the 'other side' or in the middle of the road as it were.

Finally, if anyone recognises this talk and was there maybe you can clarify if I've got any of the content wrong. I don't think I have. That's certainly how I understood it. And there were people there who I overheard afterwards saying they didn't know anything until then, there were also some younger teens there. So they've learned some wrong 'facts' and may well go away believing them.

Sorry its long!

OP posts:
mynameisnotkate · 09/09/2022 20:52

TheKeatingFive · 09/09/2022 20:41

There are cases of women with XY chromosomes giving birth.

Are there?

I believe it is possible, though extremely rare, for people with XY chromosomes and a certain condition to have wombs and I believe have carried children in the past. What they can’t do is produce eggs because they’re XY, so the egg has to be implanted. So even though things can get very complicated, the basics of XX being the sex that produces large gamete and XY being the sex that produces small gametes is never violated.

Twawmyarse · 09/09/2022 20:52

Yes - it was basically a load of old bollocks. To be expected.

AlisonDonut · 09/09/2022 20:51

It strikes me that the conditions which give rise to your sex and the binary nature of sex itself are different issues. It just confuses things if they are conflated

Huh...can you explain what you are trying to express here.

Clymene · 09/09/2022 20:50

An XY person is a man @JustSpeculation so they can't give birth.

WaveyHair · 09/09/2022 20:46

Sex isn't fixed or binary because of seahorses.

So seahorses (& sea dragons) as already mentioned carry the eggs produced by the female in a pouch & eventually give birth to them. They are still male.

To keep to the sea life theme, groupers (type of fish) start life as females, grow to a certain size and have the ability to change sex to male. They then act as a male fish in every way.

But we are not of the underwater kingdom and our sex cannot change like a grouper's. Gender is a human construct which just screws with society and has a strong influence on how people get treated.

But humans cannot change sex like a grouper, no matter how many hormones are taken and surgeries performed. Altering physical appearances based on your perception of what that sex should look like does not convert you.

TheKeatingFive · 09/09/2022 20:41

There are cases of women with XY chromosomes giving birth.

Are there?

JustSpeculation · 09/09/2022 20:39

Sex is defined by are chromosomes.

Is it? In 99.992% of cases yes, but a definition should be an expression of the essential nature of something. It should always be true. There are cases of women with XY chromosomes giving birth. I'm leery of limiting the "essential nature" of sex to chromosomes. Can't we just define it by reproductive role? Whether your investment in human reproduction is 9 months or nine minutes? Whether your body is the type which produces ova or sperm? There is no reason why the fact that some men and women choose not to reproduce, or don't have the opportunity. or are not fertile, would make this invalid.

It strikes me that the conditions which give rise to your sex and the binary nature of sex itself are different issues. It just confuses things if they are conflated.

If I am wrong here, and someone can explain why, I will be genuinely grateful.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 09/09/2022 20:25

Male seahorses are male. They don't produce the eggs, they produce the sperm that fertilises the eggs from the female. What has it got to do with men claiming to be women?

Questions are pre vetted to stop any questions about facts and reality.

Kellie45 · 09/09/2022 20:25

FrankTheThunderbird · 09/09/2022 20:21

@Lavendersummer I agree.

@TheClogLady thanks. I think it was that one. I'll add them both to my reading list.

@middleofthelittle and @Kellie45 I agree.

@PrettyPlatapus at a festival. The audience was a mixed bunch. Youngest I saw looked 12/13ish. Up to... 60s maybe. Some trans people. Some clergy. (They had collars on so I know they were clergy)

These types turn up at festivals like carrion to prey on the vulnerable. They never like debate as their beliefs are cultish. I mean, I’m going to declare myself a seven foot male tomorrow but when I look in the mirror I’m still me!

Original poster
FrankTheThunderbird · 09/09/2022 20:21

@Lavendersummer I agree.

@TheClogLady thanks. I think it was that one. I'll add them both to my reading list.

@middleofthelittle and @Kellie45 I agree.

@PrettyPlatapus at a festival. The audience was a mixed bunch. Youngest I saw looked 12/13ish. Up to... 60s maybe. Some trans people. Some clergy. (They had collars on so I know they were clergy)

OP posts:
Kellie45 · 09/09/2022 20:16

Sex is defined by are chromosomes. We cannot change sex. Mutilating our bodies or taking drugs will not change our sex. We are not sea horses and cannot be compared with them. People who teach this stuff need to put their head underwater for half an hour and see if they can live like a sea horse.
Having said that there are a few (very few) people in society who have genuine gender dysphoria and need help but it should not lead to myriads of ‘progressives’ jumping on a bandwagon and endangering vulnerable children. When we get over this unwise social experiment we will have to pick up the bill for what misguided medics have done to vulnerable youngsters.

CucumberCool · 09/09/2022 20:05

Where was the talk given? Who were the audience?

middleofthelittle · 09/09/2022 20:02

Sex is genetic and within our genes. Even those who are trans are still genetically the sex they were at birth. Changing bodily features and hormones does not change our DNA.

Gender is a choice, sex is not.

That's my view anyways

LaughingPriest · 09/09/2022 20:01

Justjoinedforthis · 09/09/2022 19:06

Surely if sex and gender are the same, THAT would erase transgender people?

Just what I came to say. No such thing as sex not "matching" gender = No such thing as trans.

bellinisurge · 09/09/2022 19:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheClogLady · 09/09/2022 19:42

I expect this was the book they were talking about: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_of_the_Transgender_Child

this one is much better:

cambridgescholars.com/product/978-1-5275-3638-8

Lavendersummer · 09/09/2022 19:18

And this is often the issue. It all starts out so reasonably. Then how hard is is/has been.
Then things that are just plain wrong and aimed at separating children emotionally from their parents.
almost every time.

Original poster
FrankTheThunderbird · 09/09/2022 19:12

Justjoinedforthis · 09/09/2022 19:06

Surely if sex and gender are the same, THAT would erase transgender people?

You're right. I thought that at the time (and then forgot that I'd thought that) but of course questions weren't allowed.

Mind you, one of the TW referred to herself as 'female' which I know the TRAs on here have always claimed was a biological sex term. So she clearly believed she had actually changed sex.

OP posts:
Justjoinedforthis · 09/09/2022 19:06

Surely if sex and gender are the same, THAT would erase transgender people?

Original poster
FrankTheThunderbird · 09/09/2022 19:00

And FWIW I'm not a new poster. Just name change regularly.

OP posts: