Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

They have turned the toilets at my daughter's school mixed sex

114 replies

dumpling23 · 06/09/2022 23:30

Yup - that's it really. On a local women's rights group I'm on, I've heard that another school in our town has also done just the same thing. I'll be writing to complain. I imagine others who look at this forum might hear that the the same change has been introduced at their children's school over the next few days, so here is a copy of my letter. If anybody else is in this situation, feel free to use/adapt this template. Corrections also welcome.

I am writing to register my concerns about the changes to the ** School toilets that have been reported to me by my child. I have been informed that the single sex provision at the English Block and the Canteen Corridor have been converted into mixed sex provision, with further conversions underway. In this letter I am requesting further information in order to better understand the situation, as the only information I have received at present comes from a child.

I will state at the outset that I consider removing single-sex toilet provision and replacing it with mixed-sex provision, as appears to be the case here, to be detrimental to female pupils. It also risks breaking the law. The guidance in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012) is very clear. It states that schools must provide separate sex provision for children over eight. In June 2018, the Department of Education reissued guidance from the Department of Education on the responsibilities of school in relation to ‘gender separation’. Paragraph 13 clearly states:

It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.

Furthermore, as you will no doubt have noticed, the Attorney General, Suella Braverman provided further guidance to schools about toilets in her speech of 10 August 2022. She said: ‘Further, in law, there is a duty to provide separate single sex toilets, a breach of which would be unlawful under the School premises (England) Regulations 2012 and the Education (Independent School Standards) Regulations 2014.

In order that I can better understand the School’s actions and assess how it fits within the UK’s legal framework, I would be grateful if you could provide answers to the following questions:

  1. What is the toilet provision in the school and is it in line with the School Premises Regulations (2012) as outlined in the Department of Education guidance?
  2. Did the school consult with students, staff and parents about the proposed change?
  3. Did the school carry out an impact assessment (especially in relation to the protected characteristics of sex and religion) on the change as is required under the Equality Act?

If the school did carry out a consultation exercise and Impact Assessment, I would be grateful if you could share the documentation around these processes.

I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Boreded · 13/10/2022 00:21

Blown out of proportion then? Presumably since nobody came back with an update lol

LuftBalloons · 15/09/2022 20:24

Brilliant letter @dumpling23 !

Let us know what happens.

Boreded · 15/09/2022 18:54

dumpling23 · 13/09/2022 22:01

To those of you whose children are facing the same thing, why not send them a copy of my letter? You can tone it down, make it politer, make it appropriate to your school's situation etc - more in the spirit of, 'umm.... I'm just politely wondering, but where are the single sex toilets, as mandated by the law? etc etc'

I have a son and a daughter at this school, but I didn't decide to write just because I have a daughter effected by the policy. Of course, that is a concern but I still would have written because I think all the girls in the school deserve easy access to a girls-only toilet during their school day.

To those few who are trying to minimise and dismiss what's going on here.... This thread is for people who believe there is a problem, care about it, and want to take action or support others to take action. If that's not you - fine, but please try not to derail.

Have you talked with the school anymore? Got any further with it?

FernPotts · 14/09/2022 15:44

op you should go see the toilets, see what they are really like

Her daughter is the one using them, and finds them offputting. That's not a good outcome.

DameHelena · 14/09/2022 08:53

I wonder where the Equality Act comes in here? I ask because my fully TWAW DP (male) insists that scenarios like this, and rape support groups for women allowing transwomen in etc, can be mitigated against by the Equality Act, but I'm not sure of the details as to how/why.

ImherewithBoudica · 14/09/2022 08:14

Next step - mixed changing rooms. Mixed sport. Mixed dorms. Because they can now say “we’ve mixed toilets and nobody minds and it’s all working perfectly and everyone is happy and only horrible people complain blah blah blah.”

Quite.

Hence Whittle openly stating in the public domain that the plan was to go after women's prisons first. Because once you successfully got males in there, the door had been slammed wide and it would be hard to stop getting males in any other female only space.

And yes, it relies on useful (or intentionally acting) idiots to stand around saying calm down dear, it's not REALLY happening, it's not really that bad, no one really minds, it's not really a problem is it...

which is how we now have women being sexually assaulted by males in prison in the name of social justice. Which is actually male supremacism, but there you go, it's dressed up very naicely. And no one really minds cos its only women.

bythere · 13/09/2022 23:21

This is totally inappropriate, it isn't right for children say much older than nursery or reception to have mixed sex facilities.

WalrusSubmarine · 13/09/2022 23:04

Next step - mixed changing rooms. Mixed sport. Mixed dorms. Because they can now say “we’ve mixed toilets and nobody minds and it’s all working perfectly and everyone is happy and only horrible people complain blah blah blah.”

Excellent letter op. Thank you for doing this.

Plus my employer has already changed our toilets to all be gender identity based not sex based and these are the separated by partition type with massive gaps at the top and floor. We also have shower rooms and changing rooms - not that I’d use them
now. To those saying this isn’t happening - This IS already happening.

FemaleAndLearning · 13/09/2022 22:17

If we have kids at school we should all be checking their policies and toilets. If girls have to accept boys in their vicinity whilst using toilets what we are going is saying your boundaries do not matter, your dignity does not matter, your privacy does not matter and we do not respect you. It also tells girls that when they use toilets in public they will have to accept men and boys them. Schools are getting this wrong and it's a shame it is down to parents to force them to get it right.

Original poster
dumpling23 · 13/09/2022 22:01

To those of you whose children are facing the same thing, why not send them a copy of my letter? You can tone it down, make it politer, make it appropriate to your school's situation etc - more in the spirit of, 'umm.... I'm just politely wondering, but where are the single sex toilets, as mandated by the law? etc etc'

I have a son and a daughter at this school, but I didn't decide to write just because I have a daughter effected by the policy. Of course, that is a concern but I still would have written because I think all the girls in the school deserve easy access to a girls-only toilet during their school day.

To those few who are trying to minimise and dismiss what's going on here.... This thread is for people who believe there is a problem, care about it, and want to take action or support others to take action. If that's not you - fine, but please try not to derail.

OP posts:
DdraigGoch · 13/09/2022 21:08

Boreded · 13/09/2022 14:40

So there are single sex and mixed sex provisions…just as I suspected.

thanks for the tag @Sazzasez

they have given three options and so won’t be contravening any laws or gov guidance…if they were then they wouldn’t have done it.

op you should go see the toilets, see what they are really like, rather than what you’ve made them to be in your mind.

Show quote history

The OP's daughter is avoiding going to the toilet because the few remaining single-sex ones are not easy enough to access. This will have consequences for her health.

IStandWithMaya · 13/09/2022 20:58

Poor girls. They really need us to speak up for single sex provision.

FemaleAndLearning · 13/09/2022 20:49

Pitchforks? I didn't get the memo I still have my broomstick.

Great update OP.

ImherewithBoudica · 13/09/2022 19:55

How fun for girls to now get to play hunt the accessible toilet!

titchy · 13/09/2022 16:32

Hopefully she is mistaken and she just hasn’t spotted the single sex ones yet

Ever had to go hunting for a toilet you can use, uncertain that it even exists, with blood pouring down your leg? No child should should be in a school where single sex toilets are bloody hidden away in some obscure part of the building FFS.

PizzaFunghi · 13/09/2022 15:05

a few single sex toilets dotted around is nowhere near enough for the girls to use, given that there needs to be more provision for girls toilets at the best of times. They will be forced to use the mixed sex ones because of time and proximity, which is really not fair, or just avoiding the loos all day, which is unhealthy. And not because they're "offended".

Really annoys me that schools are doing this. I know of some who are doing this now too, and not having doors to the corridors, either, so that the handwashing area is totally open. I hope parents complain.

RiskyReels · 13/09/2022 14:56

Me too, but older kids at the school aren't aware of any single sex toilets and when I emailed the support team to seek help with DD's anxiety and directly asked about it, the response swerved the question.

Boreded · 13/09/2022 14:52

RiskyReels · 13/09/2022 14:47

Thanks OP and other posters for the links to guidance. Watching with interest because as far as I can work out, all toilets in my DD's secondary school are unisex (shared communal space with sinks, then toilets in cubicles) and there is no single sex provision at all. It is causing some anxiety for DD 😟😡

Well that’s not ok…Have you contacted them or is it just that you’ve heard from DD? Hopefully she is mistaken and she just hasn’t spotted the single sex ones yet…hoping this is the case

Boreded · 13/09/2022 14:50

Sazzasez · 13/09/2022 14:30

Just waiting for @Boreded , who was very confident that @dumpling23 would not be back again and 100% sure that it was only a few loos being made mixed sex, is going to pop up & tell us why dumpling’s update is a “rant” & can’t be believed for... reasons.

It can be believed, there are three options available, as expected.

i don’t think anyone ranted, just took exception to something before the facts were established.

if op updates again then I will listen with an open mind, but please can people stop tagging me in the meantime and it is tiresome

Musomama1 · 13/09/2022 14:50

Just adding, we had some nasty boys at my school, proper bullies who would pick on girls and I'm so glad we didn't have to share a toilet with them for further humiliation.

RiskyReels · 13/09/2022 14:47

Thanks OP and other posters for the links to guidance. Watching with interest because as far as I can work out, all toilets in my DD's secondary school are unisex (shared communal space with sinks, then toilets in cubicles) and there is no single sex provision at all. It is causing some anxiety for DD 😟😡

Boreded · 13/09/2022 14:40

dumpling23 · 13/09/2022 08:37

Well - I'm back. Thank you all for your input - some of you pointed out sites I could look at and made great suggestions, so I slightly improved the letter and sent it off last week.
To clarify: the three main toilet blocks have all been converted. There are a few random single-sex toilets left, but it's a very large campus, so access to single-sex toilets is considerably diminished for all girls. My own daughter is holding off going to the toilet all day because she is usually nowhere near a girls toilet. She tells me that the school was 'given' the money and they were all told to be grateful. I presume it came from the Academy trust they are a part of. I don't really know.
At the moment there is not much to update. I sent the letter to the Head, the Governors, and the CEO of the Trust. The school has invited me in to view the toilets. I've indicated that this won't be necessary as it is already clear that the single-sex provision has been replaced by mixed sex provision and that this contravenes a number of UK statutes - and (in not so many words) that me coming to view the toilets isn't going to magically transform the toilets into something that complies with the law! (Or maybe, if I come and see them, the law will just magically change so that the toilets become legal??? I don't know!)
Anyway, I've indicated that I'm content to wait for a written response and that's pretty much where we are.
I'll update as we go. Silence ≠ storm in a teacup or that problem is/was non-existent. It just means: no news. If anybody else is in the same situation or knows anybody who has been do get in touch. Information about parents in this situation who managed to restore single-sex provision to their schools would be especially welcome. Thanks to you all again.

So there are single sex and mixed sex provisions…just as I suspected.

thanks for the tag @Sazzasez

they have given three options and so won’t be contravening any laws or gov guidance…if they were then they wouldn’t have done it.

op you should go see the toilets, see what they are really like, rather than what you’ve made them to be in your mind.

Sazzasez · 13/09/2022 14:30

Just waiting for @Boreded , who was very confident that @dumpling23 would not be back again and 100% sure that it was only a few loos being made mixed sex, is going to pop up & tell us why dumpling’s update is a “rant” & can’t be believed for... reasons.

PizzaFunghi · 13/09/2022 13:37

and even if only some of the toilets are converted, it still reduces females access to toilets, given that most of them have reasons for not wanting a mixed one. Women need more toilet facilities in a building/school/etc, not fewer

PizzaFunghi · 13/09/2022 13:35

Boreded · 08/09/2022 22:22

But this is most likely a case of three toilets, male, female, and mixed.

it will allow trans students a safe space to go to the toilet that doesn’t put them at risk of having to go to the wrong bathroom, and doesn’t offend boys and girls who don’t accept their gender decisions.

i think it is the most sensible option. There are so many posts about parents of bio girls who don’t want trans girls (bio boys) in their daughters’ changing rooms and toilets…this fixes that. There is still a girls only space, and a boys only space, but also a mixed space.

if people put their pitchforks down for a second, and see it as a 3 toilet situation, not a 1 toilet situation then they would realise that this is actually for the best of many/all

So you think the problem that girls have with boys in their toilets (or v.v.) is that they're offended by it, because they don't accept the others' gender decisions?

What about - feeling unsafe? having a lack of dignity? having no privacy? being gaslit?

Being offended is not the problem. I'm not offended by transwomen in the female toilets. I feel potentially in danger, from any male, and want a safe space from them. I want privacy and dignity as well.

Also, what is bio-gender that you keep going on about? If anything is biological, surely, it's someone's sex.