The spell is breaking......daughters finally waking up?

Trans woman and cis women both suffer oppression from the patriarchy

Maybe. But transwomen miss out on all the female-specific stuff about how our bodies grow and operate -- the biology that makes us on average smaller and less muscular; the biology that grows eggs, with all that that leads to.

It's very unfair to treat different bodies as if all are male and none have female-specific issues.

I thought we were trying to get past that particular bit of sexism, rather than ignoring it in case it upsets male people.

The more trans people come out, the more people will get to know them and support their rights.

Which specific rights though? The ones about single-sex spaces I would like are in opposition to the ones other people would like (I don't know how you personally establish who is trans or not or what definition you use, so it's a bit arbitrary which group wants which rights).

"How sad that you can't see if something is right or wrong unless you have personal experience of it."

I was pro-trans rights before I ever knowingly met a trans person (and I was also against antisemitism before I ever knowingly met a Jew).

Everyone's journey is different but knowing someone does help. For example, if you know a gay or lesbian you're far more likely to be pro-gay marriage.

news.gallup.com/poll/118931/knowing-someone-gay-lesbian-affects-views-gay-issues.aspx

The more trans people come out, the more people will get to know them and support their rights. It's inevitable!

"women also have struggles which are rooted in our biology, namely the sex-based oppression women have faced in patriarchal societies forever"

I couldn't agree more. Trans woman and cis women both suffer oppression from the patriarchy and that is why the sisterhood and solidarity is so important.

Most people who are pro-trans rights are pro-trans rights because we actually know trans people and learn about their struggles first-hand.

How sad that you can't see if something is right or wrong unless you have personal experience of it. Like all those misogynist blokes who have daughters and suddenly realise what a shitshow it is for women being preyed on all the time.

I call BS anyway - usually people who are pro 'rights' of any kind are able to articulate what rights they are demanding.

For example: I strongly believe that all people should have the right to single-sex spaces where required, for purposes of safety and dignity. Single-sex spaces don't solve all problems, but they are a 'quick and dirty' way of reducing risk.

And from the two transwomen in my life, it's 100% homophobia at the root of it - both of my parents' age and generation, both come from cultures where being an effete gay man would have been unacceptable in the 60s when they were growing up (working class British, and an Asian country) and being a woman, even a transwoman, was more acceptable.

If we're getting into anecdote.

we actually know trans people and learn about their struggles first-hand

As do I. And from that, I conclude that most trans people are either autistic or had some significant trauma in their teenage years, often involving a family member's illness or death. That's how it works, yes? Personal anecdote?

Hearach you may have reached your conclusions on your own but many do not - mindlessly saying that JKR is transphobic and then it transpires they have not read what she said, or thinking that no one on here has trans friends or loved ones, or doing research only on sites that confirm their own biases, or accepting data that confirms their own views and rejecting the veracity of those that challenge them.

I used to be where you are, until it dawned on me that the legal definition of "woman", plus the rights of women to single sex spaces in prisons, rape crisis shelters, sport, scholarships and anywhere else where sex-based allowances are needed were not mine to give away just because I have one lovely transwoman friend who wouldn't hurt a fly, and one of my auntie's best friends is a transwoman who transitioned in the 90s from a country where being gay was less accepted than being trans, and the colossal struggles and heartache and literal pain each has gone through.

Transpeople absolutely have struggles, women also have struggles which are rooted in our biology, namely the sex-based oppression women have faced in patriarchal societies forever and out of which we cannot identify. We need third spaces, open leagues in sports, additional facilities while preserving single sex ones. Unfortunately, that isn't acceptable to many trans people and their allies who demand nothing less than total validation and capitulation, in thought, word and deed. Hence the need to debate, discuss and persuade, and thank goodness MN allows us a space in which to do that

"Brainwashing and indoctrination, and regurgitating verbatim nonsense from a website is not the same as coming to conclusions via free thinking, research and considered thought."

You seem to think that just because someone has reached a different conclusion to you that they are not "free thinking". Most people who are pro-trans rights are pro-trans rights because we actually know trans people and learn about their struggles first-hand.

I would strongly suggest that when someone like that joins a thread like this, we all resist the urge to become contemptuous but instead try to open up the conversation. Often it will be futile but occasionally someone like me will start to see the issues and will firmly end up on the side of TWATW. I know it’s a fraught issue on all sides but throwing insults gets us nowhere.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

My son, 19, and his friends all think it’s a bit silly. In the same way they laughed at misogynist TikTok videos. They don’t say much, but don’t really rate others who are overly woke on social media, especially girls who are very TWAW.

They have two gay male friends who came out at school and are very supportive.

However he is so far wary of the trans issue because in his limited experience it just means being bullied. One girl really offended my son by trying to make out that he was bigoted by not fancying her trans female friend (biologically male).

He has a few other tales that could fill a thread in itself. So believe me, there are a few young men out there also who can see that the blurring of boundaries in trans issues can just be really messed up when you are trying to find your feet, your own sexuality growing up.

For what it’s worth, the issue that started to introduce doubt about TWAW for me was the chemical castration etc of children who later change their minds.

I am starting to see desisters among the kids' cohort. The transgirl on the local boys' football team (accepted there by all the boys, incidentally -- proper inclusion) has quietly abandoned the girls' uniform at school and gone back to trousers and previous name.

But, as our teenage relative has had surgery, I am dreading possible regret there. We certainly didn't cheer on the transition, but neither did we stand up in time and shout 'What the fuck are you playing at?' at her parents.

Yes. DD22 got it straight away and is a card carrying terf. Her two older brothers were more TWAW but I refused to give an inch or be cowed by their be-kind BS. They're now pretty terfy themselves.

Trying to work out who is of the same opinion .... it's like Nazi Germany and other totalitarian eras in history .... afraid of the knock on the door in the middle of the night from the secret police to disapear you to a re-education camp.

It's an outrage

I was @Fupoffyagrasshole not so long ago. Didn’t get it - felt very much “live and let live” about the whole issue.

What swayed me was not people piling on with the insults but people patiently explaining the issues. I would strongly suggest that when someone like that joins a thread like this, we all resist the urge to become contemptuous but instead try to open up the conversation. Often it will be futile but occasionally someone like me will start to see the issues and will firmly end up on the side of TWATW. I know it’s a fraught issue on all sides but throwing insults gets us nowhere.

For what it’s worth, the issue that started to introduce doubt about TWAW for me was the chemical castration etc of children who later change their minds, and the fact that the messages that are spread in schools are entirely experimental and are causing genuine harm to children who are misinterpreting their normal teenage feelings as gender dysphoria. Also prisons and sport. I think those are the easiest and most concrete arguments to start with - more abstract concepts such as rights are harder for people to understand because on the surface of it, it seems kind and woke to have a “live and let live” attitude and because the abstract issues are by their nature harder to connect with.

Three years ago my teenage dd (now 16) had flags on her bedroom wall, shut down even the most gentle of questions, considered herself non binary, or maybe he / him, hated the awful transphobia spouted by JK (though couldn't actually tell me what she had said).

Today she complains about the gender-neutral bathrooms at school and says that people seem to have confused sex with gender. She is still a staunch supporter of gender expression and respecting pronouns (I'm not really, though I'll be polite about it if you are) but she also believes that women have sex-based rights for a reason, and that a bunch of men deciding that their voices are the most important ones seems like a load of the same old bollocks.

We're both keeping a close eye on little sister who is about to be launched into the 'gender woo years'.

I think the tide is turning and am hopeful it will actually be better for all. At the moment everything around the issue is so toxic that the vulnerable people at the centre cannot access the support and the care they need, and of course women have been treated appallingly. Here's to the future.

Well done! I did the same.

Here’s hoping, very fervently.

@puffyisgood

I was really wondering about your second photograph. The player who styles their hair in the fashion of a middle aged man with male pattern male baldness syndrome ( fabulous that hair styles can be Unisex and gender non conforming and shows real progress in society in challenging female sterotypes about the stigma of female baldnes ... well done that rugby player )

Any details ?

Just they hairstyle looks very similar to the Italiian now based in Ireland ( who openly posts on Social Media about their interests of niche sex practices ) who plays on for a LBGTQ+ inclusive GAA team in a girls/female league, and gave an interview that they starting playing GAA after they became upset about restrictions in Rugby on female changing rooms being prioritised for people of the female sex.

Would it be one and the same ?

My DDs have previously taken the eye roll leave the room approach. But DD1, university student, recently told me that she is GC and has been trying to work out who among her acquaintances at university are GC too, so that she can talk about it to them without being "cancelled". I think that this will be a good influence on DD2.
OP, do you feel that the situation in Scotland is made more complicated by the new Hate Crimes Bill?

Yep, me too!

Particularly as my DD6's best friend's mum, supposedly a feminist, is very much "An Ally", and is very much the sort to be already teaching her DD that TWAW, so imagine I will be facing this sooner rather than later 😬

Well done you! My little one has started school this week and one of my questions for the teacher was around how this is managed. I'm determined my child will not be indoctrinated.