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Original poster

The spell is breaking......daughters finally waking up?

138 replies

BoredofthisCrap7 · 05/09/2022 10:34

I have slowly and gently been countering the trans ideology that my two teenage girls have been exposed to at school and social media.
One has always been very gender critical and we have been discussing things in the news like men in women's sports, the many (many) kids identifying as "trans" in her year at school, her own registration teacher (whose child is a trans male to female) basically indoctrinating her group on trans "rights", the law in Scotland where we live etc.

My oldest girls however, was VERY much TWAW, be kind, the whole hog. She has a gay BF and I think she was confusing the issues in her mind. We have had a lot of VERY tense conversations but I hoped she would come to her own conclusions in time.
Yesterday we had a breakthrough.
We were discussing (again) women's sports and the rugby issue, the golfing/snooker issue in the news. She finally admitted that biology is important in sport, that she thinks there should be categories for trans athletes (I will work on this!) and EVEN wondered OUT LOUD that bathrooms and sex segregated spaces should include third spaces for trans people.

It was a massive admission for her.
I did then explain to her that what she just said would get her "cancelled" as a terf, that these solutions have ALL been suggested and that they are never good enough for the TRAs, that they want #no debate, unquestioning acceptance that TWAW, across the board access to women's spaces etc.

She said....."it's not fair Mum is it?".

I could cry.

I think the spell is breaking.

Have you broke through with any TWAW children or relatives?

OP posts:
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7
LaughingPriest · 07/09/2022 19:58

Easy answer, don't have any visitors lol.

Mumsnetters have been all over that for years...!

FilePhoto · 07/09/2022 19:08

DS1 was quite "twaw. Why can't you just be kind" a couple of years ago. He had, I think, 3 trans boy friends. (Maybe 2).
I basically told him that as a man his opinion on women's only spaces were not his to comment on and that of he was happy sharing changing rooms (at school) with trans boys then that was his opinion to have. I also asked him if he could see any potential dangers at all with females being in the boys changing room.

It was actually irrelevant because his school said they had to use the girls changing rooms. The toilets are all gender neutral at his school anyway.

Then he came out as gay and I gently probed over time as to whether he'd date/potentially sleep with a trans boy. He said no. Because they've got the "wrong" bits.

Now he's openly GC. Thinks men should stay in mens facilities and vice versa. Regardless of how they identify. He's also admitted being concerned about the number of teen girls identifying as boys and thinks its because female puberty, and being a woman, sounds so awful that he can see why they don't want that. (He was horrified when I told him I've been being wolf whistled at since I was 11.)

My mum was also "why does it matter what toilets they use, they can't see me in my cubicle". And then the sports stuff happened. I asked how she'd feel if an old childhood friend identified as female and changed to the female rugby team. (Hes 6ft 7, and rugby is his hobby.) If I ( hypothetically - I can't imagine anything worse than playing rugby) ended up playing against him, how would she feel. That was enough to change her mind. (I'm 5ft 1 if I stand up really straight)

Original poster
BoredofthisCrap7 · 07/09/2022 19:06

comfortablyfrumpy · 07/09/2022 18:56

Mine have swallowed it all hook line abd sinker unfortunately.

Younger one just informed me the new PM is no good because she says a TW is not a woman.

I explained very carefully why she might say that, sex is not immutable etc. Daughter now thinks I am the world's worst TERF :)

All I can say is keep plugging, consistently and calmly.
Counter every single part of the ideology you can with facts.

It takes time.
I've not fully succeeded yet with DD1 but this was the beginning of the end I think.

If she's interested in sports, that might be a way to try.
Don't give up.

OP posts:
comfortablyfrumpy · 07/09/2022 18:56

Mine have swallowed it all hook line abd sinker unfortunately.

Younger one just informed me the new PM is no good because she says a TW is not a woman.

I explained very carefully why she might say that, sex is not immutable etc. Daughter now thinks I am the world's worst TERF :)

Soontobe60 · 07/09/2022 18:36

Fupoffyagrasshole · 05/09/2022 15:42

ah when the Country is uninhabitable in a few years and everyone is fucked because of climate change and the future is looking super bleak - I'm sure you will take comfort knowing you spent your time focusing on this as your fight.

So going with that thread, you don’t think we should be fighting against FGM, girls education in Afghanistan, County Lines, the death penalty?

oakleaffy · 07/09/2022 18:34

There is most definitely an Awakening .
This was spotted in a place where vulnerable children go.
South West of England.
I completely agree with this sentiment.

The spell is breaking......daughters finally waking up?
BrokenFridgeDrawer · 07/09/2022 18:30

Bridge. Food. Poiintless. Ignore

Helleofabore · 07/09/2022 18:27

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:27

Millions of cisgender women around the world were born without a uterus. That doesn't make them any less of a woman.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/mayer-rokitansky-kuster-hauser-syndrome/#:~:text=Mayer%2DRokitansky%2DK%C3%BCster%2DHauser%20(MRKH)%20syndrome%20is,the%20absence%20of%20a%20uterus.

Show quote history

Please stop utilising people's medical conditions to leverage males into the definition of 'women'. It is offensive.

Females ONLY have a body formed around the production of large gametes, and that is regardless of if they ever have, are or ever will successfully produce those gametes.

A uterus is not actually the part of the body that produces those large gametes.

Your comment is irrelevant to whether a male can be a 'woman' or not.

TheBiologyStupid · 07/09/2022 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Not in the spirit

What an extremely bigoted view - truly shocking.

Xiaoxiong · 07/09/2022 18:07

Well @Hearach15 we'll just have to agree to disagree on that - I can't imagine being disappointed in my children's sexualities whether they're lesbian, gay, straight or bi, so I suspect we don't have much in common.

workedwell · 07/09/2022 17:56

BrokenFridgeDrawer · 07/09/2022 10:57

Trying to work out who is of the same opinion .... it's like Nazi Germany and other totalitarian eras in history .... afraid of the knock on the door in the middle of the night from the secret police to disapear you to a re-education camp.

It's an outrage

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Yes in Scotland only the Scottish Conservatives voted against the SNP Hate Crimes Bill, after working to try to tone it down.
It is chilling that a visitor to your house could report you in Scotland for something you say at your dinner table. Easy answer, don't have any visitors lol.

TheBiologyStupid · 07/09/2022 17:56

Xiaoxiong · 07/09/2022 16:12

Hearach you may have reached your conclusions on your own but many do not - mindlessly saying that JKR is transphobic and then it transpires they have not read what she said, or thinking that no one on here has trans friends or loved ones, or doing research only on sites that confirm their own biases, or accepting data that confirms their own views and rejecting the veracity of those that challenge them.

I used to be where you are, until it dawned on me that the legal definition of "woman", plus the rights of women to single sex spaces in prisons, rape crisis shelters, sport, scholarships and anywhere else where sex-based allowances are needed were not mine to give away just because I have one lovely transwoman friend who wouldn't hurt a fly, and one of my auntie's best friends is a transwoman who transitioned in the 90s from a country where being gay was less accepted than being trans, and the colossal struggles and heartache and literal pain each has gone through.

Transpeople absolutely have struggles, women also have struggles which are rooted in our biology, namely the sex-based oppression women have faced in patriarchal societies forever and out of which we cannot identify. We need third spaces, open leagues in sports, additional facilities while preserving single sex ones. Unfortunately, that isn't acceptable to many trans people and their allies who demand nothing less than total validation and capitulation, in thought, word and deed. Hence the need to debate, discuss and persuade, and thank goodness MN allows us a space in which to do that Flowers

Very nicely said, Xiaoxiong.

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:56

This reply has been deleted

Not in the spirit

Vargas · 07/09/2022 17:55

I really hope this is true.

But the other day a good friend told me her son is gay which really surprised me. Turns out his 'boyfriend' is a trans man who recently finished A levels at an all girls school. She seemed weirdly proud that her son was no longer 'straight' (too boring I guess?),

FernPotts · 07/09/2022 17:54

I don’t think you are arguing in good faith, Hearach. Why would I ‘approve’? Breast removal to prevent or treat breast cancer is one thing; breast removal with a side effect of reducing breast cancer another matter. Amputating a damaged limb may be necessary, but you’d hardly recommend amputation in order to prevent a broken leg.

Original poster
BoredofthisCrap7 · 07/09/2022 17:52

Also, oestrogen can increase cancer risk if the particular cancer is oestrogen receptive.

THAT's why they get an increased risk.
NOT because they're "trans" - because they're pumping themselves full of artificial hormones never intended for their male bodies.

It would happen to any "cis" male dosing themselves with female hormones.

What a pathetic argument to try to group males and females together to suit your TRA babble.

OP posts:
Original poster
BoredofthisCrap7 · 07/09/2022 17:47

"sisterhood and solidarity"

Well, given that they are males, they cannot be part of a sisterhood. Men are not women.

Also, you've resorted to the PREDICTABLE TRA arguments AGAIN while STILL FAILING to answer what the "rights" are that you are fighting for.

What about women without uteruses?
They're still not men.

Trans men! What about them eh?
They're still female and don't pose a threat to me.

Transwomen have stuff in common with cis women!
Apart from belonging to the same species, no they don't. They're men.

It sounds like you are reading off some kind of script.

Also, I'm sure that the young women who have had their breasts lopped off and later regretted it are delighted that they have a decreased risk of breast cancer.
What a fantastic advocate for them you are.

OP posts:
Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:28

FernPotts · 07/09/2022 17:26

I can quite believe that taking opposite-sex hormones is a bad idea for one's cancer risk, and I hope that risk is fully explained to people.

Equally, trans men who have had top surgery have a much reduced risk of breast cancer.

I'm sure you approve 😀

MsRosley · 07/09/2022 17:28

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:21

They obviously do. That is why trans women are catcalled on the street:

jezebel.com/what-street-harassment-is-like-for-me-as-a-trans-woman-1659488352

And they also have a much higher risk of breast cancer than cis men. So they actually share a number of biological traits with cis women as well:

www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/study-shows-increased-risk-of-breast-cancer-in-transgender-women/

This is why they're part of the sisterhood 😀

Show quote history

I share some biological traits with fish: I can swim and like the taste of seaweed. I'm not a fish. Even if some men say I smell like a fish, I am still not a fish.

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:27

FernPotts · 07/09/2022 17:25

They neither shrink nor grow eggs on transition, Hearach.

Transwomen do not suffer female-specific issues.

Millions of cisgender women around the world were born without a uterus. That doesn't make them any less of a woman.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/mayer-rokitansky-kuster-hauser-syndrome/#:~:text=Mayer%2DRokitansky%2DK%C3%BCster%2DHauser%20(MRKH)%20syndrome%20is,the%20absence%20of%20a%20uterus.

FernPotts · 07/09/2022 17:26

I can quite believe that taking opposite-sex hormones is a bad idea for one's cancer risk, and I hope that risk is fully explained to people.

FernPotts · 07/09/2022 17:25

They neither shrink nor grow eggs on transition, Hearach.

Transwomen do not suffer female-specific issues.

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:21

FernPotts · 07/09/2022 17:18

Trans woman and cis women both suffer oppression from the patriarchy

Maybe. But transwomen miss out on all the female-specific stuff about how our bodies grow and operate -- the biology that makes us on average smaller and less muscular; the biology that grows eggs, with all that that leads to.

It's very unfair to treat different bodies as if all are male and none have female-specific issues.

I thought we were trying to get past that particular bit of sexism, rather than ignoring it in case it upsets male people.

They obviously do. That is why trans women are catcalled on the street:

jezebel.com/what-street-harassment-is-like-for-me-as-a-trans-woman-1659488352

And they also have a much higher risk of breast cancer than cis men. So they actually share a number of biological traits with cis women as well:

www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/study-shows-increased-risk-of-breast-cancer-in-transgender-women/

This is why they're part of the sisterhood 😀

Hearach15 · 07/09/2022 17:19

LaughingPriest · 07/09/2022 17:15

The more trans people come out, the more people will get to know them and support their rights.

Which specific rights though? The ones about single-sex spaces I would like are in opposition to the ones other people would like (I don't know how you personally establish who is trans or not or what definition you use, so it's a bit arbitrary which group wants which rights).

You're happy for a trans man like Jamie Wilson to use women's spaces?

www.boredpanda.com/transgender-man-before-and-after-jamie-wilson/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

I think most women would have a problem with that...

The spell is breaking......daughters finally waking up?
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