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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Was anyone else teaching or working with children in the decade 2000-2010?

189 replies

BadSkiingMum · 03/09/2022 16:32

I am resolutely gender critical and one of the things that makes it so tricky for me to believe the 'born in the wrong body' idea is that I was a primary teacher for about ten years (from 2000 onwards) and the question of gender identity never arose. Ever.

To give a little context, I was a full time class-teacher for many of those years (across four schools), spending the whole year with 30+ children (so knowing them extremely well) and then taking on management positions where I was involved in reviewing the attainment, progress and wellbeing of dozens of other children. Yet a desire for a child to identify as a different gender to that of his or her biological sex was just not apparent; many children were facing problems such as poverty, broken families, refugee status, learning disabilities, involvement with the social care system, being a young carer... I worked in schools where a significant proportion of children could be described as disadvantaged; in other schools I also taught the children of surgeons, diplomats and bankers. Huge amounts of time were spent in school on initiatives to support children's wellbeing. There were undoubtedly children who had mental health needs and, at the time, budgets were good so services such as school counselling or play therapy were available for some children where there were particular concerns. As a teacher I worked alongside those other professionals and read their reports, yet the issue of gender identity was never, ever mentioned. Other children were receiving support from CAMHS (even a very well-known clinic in London) and the lack of feedback on this topic was the same. Nor was it ever raised in training sessions, professional development meetings or online teaching forums, where I spent a lot of time.

This lacuna is very puzzling to me, as that same generation of children is now in their mid-twenties and a narrative of having 'felt wrong' from an early age seems to be prevalent. If this was so much the case, why did it never arise? Not once, in the many hundreds of children with whom I had contact? Never from colleagues in other schools? I am confident that it would have been discussed, albeit anonymised. Schools were certainly making time and resources available to explore and support wellbeing, so surely it would have emerged? Or are personal histories simply being re-told to suit current identities?

However, for the sake of fairness, it is important to note that, at the time, mental health was generally viewed by schools in terms of how it was impacting upon a child's progress, attainment and behaviour, rather than being an outcome in itself. I think that shift in perspective has been beneficial - I think that children and young people certainly do get more support than hitherto which can only be a good thing - but I also wonder if a certain 'pathologising' of emotions has taken place...

So, arriving at my original point, were you teaching around the same time and were your observations and experiences similar to mine? If not, when did you first notice gender identity politics becoming apparent in schools?

OP posts:
unicormb · 04/09/2022 10:57

2017 - I didn't time travel to teach them Grin

unicormb · 04/09/2022 10:56

A child I taught from 20017-2010 is now a campaigner for trans rights, they do amazing work supporting the young, black, LGBTQ+ community and I'm immensely proud of them. And yes it did 'come up' during their time at school, I was one of the only teachers that openly supported them in living the way that they felt was most truthful to them. We are in still in touch.

Cismyfatarse · 04/09/2022 10:49

I have been a teacher since 1991 and first came across this in 2016. I was aware of it becoming a thing in other schools but we had our first one then. FTM. She lived very remotely and of the group of 5 kids of that age, from that village, 2 are now trans.

We recently had a trans man couple too. One transed FTM and the girlfriend followed (FTM) about 6 months later.

Since the new term started we are on 3/600 pupils but last year it was 7/600 so I think, with a group leaving, things might be turning a bit.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/09/2022 10:46

I teach 18+ and it has only been since 2010 or so that I have encountered this. It started with a dribble and is now a flow but with they/them being the most common pronouns. Prior to this, I remember eating disorders, emo and self-harm. The eating disorders came first and self-harm was extremely common after 2010.

I think a lot of it has to do with online cultures and the rise of porn which has led to a normalisation of some forms of sexual harassment, unrealistic ideas about beauty and sex and children being exposed to these ideas and experiences much younger than they used to be.

NorthFaceofthelaundrypile · 04/09/2022 10:25

In 2002 I had one female student that presented as male, though retained her name.
I remember calling out the register and when she answered thinking that the child was having a laugh at my expense.
Interestingly, she presented in much more of a masculine way than any of my female trans identified students now. The former student had a proper barber cut, mens shoes etc, my students have more Bob like cuts, and it’s hard to explain but keep things quite pretty.

FloatingthroughSpace · 04/09/2022 10:24

Am an Ed psych, been one for 25 years.
Knew of 1 MTF back in the early 2000s; always spoke about "being a girl" from age 3 or so.

1 FTM around 2010 - autistic female.

Now am aware of loads all with a typical profile of discongruence appearing in mid to late puberty. Many are autistic, have care history, or other vulnerabilities.

My concerns for these youngsters have nothing to do with transphobia and everything to do with safeguarding.

Singleandproud · 04/09/2022 10:14

TW: self harm

I was at high school in the early 00s and didn't know anyone who was questioning their gender. A few people who were homosexual but that wasn't really talked about, I do know of several students who had eating disorders and others that were goths/emo though. As far as I know none of my previous cohort have come out as transgender.

I teach in the same school now that I attended myself and our first gender questioning student was about 6 years ago, now we have 20+. Before this we had a massive amount of students self harming, doing it over social media as if it was fashionable. Looking back to my own school days its the same type of student group that had the ED and were into alternative things as when I was younger as was a majority of the 'fashionable' self harmers we had a few years ago and social contagion seems to be a massive part of all these 'trends'.

I'm not making light of self harm, I know how anguished some people are but most that do it seriously keep it private and it isn't performative.

Treaclemine · 04/09/2022 10:02

Taught since the 60s. Long hair for girls initially very very rare. Came in gradually, and we had struggles with having it tied back for PE, and a girl complaining her mother wouldn't let her have it cut. I noted to self that in my youth mothers wouldn't let girls grow it. Something similar with pierced ears, also a hazard in PE. Parents were very much not supportive of these limitations. This was before the millenium. One parent was terrified of their daughter becoming a tomboy. As if it were a disease.
Never a boy claiming to be in the wrong body, though there was one I would be interested to know about now. Played with girls and was a bit camp in gestures. One boy I do know is now a woman. He didn't play with other boys, but not with girls either, though had one good friend.
The numbers now are a major surprise. There was no inkling of any such thing as trans. I stopped about 2007.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2022 19:23

Not specifically trans, but I came across this piece the other day and was stunned at the kind of garbled nonsense that teens are now exposed to

www.teenvogue.com/story/9-things-people-get-wrong-about-being-non-binary/amp

It's such an impressionable age and this stuff is everywhere. Social contagion, the media, the woke cheerleaders everywhere, common sense not daring to speak its name. That's most of it, I'd hazard.

JellySaurus · 03/09/2022 19:19

Not a teacher, but a parent of gender non-conforming boys.

2008-2011 Eldest ds had long hair, tied back in ponytail(s) at school, plus colourful clothes out of school. He was generally accepted as he was, but sometimes teased about being "girlie". Ds didn't give a dam, so the teasers gave up teasing.

2013-2016 Youngest ds had long hair, tied back in ponytail(s) at school, plus colourful clothes out of school. Was also mocked and teased, but frequently was asked "Do you think you're a girl?"

A typical conversation would be:
"Do you think you're a girl?"
"No."
"Then why are you wearing girls' clothes?"
"I'm not. These are my clothes."
"Yeah, but that's pink"
"So what? I like pink."
"But you've got long hair."
"So?"
"And you've got a ponytail."
"School rules."
"For girls."
"No, for long hair."
"Are you sure you're not a girl?"

HmmConfused

PAFMO · 03/09/2022 18:41

29thMay1970 · 03/09/2022 17:15

NC for this- have to be so careful professionally now.
I’ve been in education since 1994. It’s only been an issue in the past few years. In every single case, including all current children using different names and pronouns, there are significant issues in the background ie. childhood trauma, MH issues and nearly all I can think of have or I suspect have, ASC. It is also massively disproportionate between girls and boys- I suspect that despite the LGBTQ+ positivity encouraged at school, there are dozens of gay young men becoming more and more guarded and worried about coming out.
The irony is, this dyed in the wool feminist who took part in first Pride events and marched against homophobia and Section 28, has to tread very carefully and watch my ‘transphobic’ views. Meanwhile, very well meaning but in my mind, terrifyingly naive, young teachers put up unicorn displays with ‘all the genders’ explained. The people we refer troubled students to fully support trans ideology, they reinforce the use of pronouns and in some cases identify as other genders themselves. I believe that their blind acceptance means they miss other very concerning factors in the children’s lives.

I remember how I studied gender and women writers at uni to try and fight the bias; young women seem to think we have equality but it is being sold down the river. We should be examining why being female is so terrifying to young girls right now- it’s something I highlight daily. Sexism at school is like it was in the 80s, sexual harassment is commonplace and gender stereotypes are being reinforced, all as part of this trans ideology.

I agree with this, word for word.
I've been in full time teaching since 1994. I've not yet had a trans student. My school, (in my tenth year there) to my knowledge, has had 2. One M2F and one F2M. The first one is now 21, and began treatment at around 17. The second is 17 now and currently lives as male. One ex colleague has recently announced he is now living as a woman. So, in 27 years of teaching, I've known 3 people in the school's I've worked in, all in the last 5 years. (obviously, there are probably more I'm unaware of)
I was also that liberal feminist who would have marched at university for anyone's rights. And did.
Mumsnet has educated me. I do talk about my GC stance privately and get the "oooh bet you vote Tory now as well" rubbish back.

AtomicBlondeRose · 03/09/2022 18:32

I’ve taught secondary/sixth form for 20 years. There has usually been one girl in each year who was a true tomboy - maybe short hair, played football, never wore a skirt, but they never identified as male. This was usually something that was well known about this girl since they were very small and completely accepted by peers.

There have always also been girls who maybe seemed uncomfortable in themselves and trying to fit in with accepted gender roles. Very often these girls would realise they were lesbian and immediately seem much more comfortable in themselves. Or they would find a tribe such as emo and become a part of that.

I never came across a female-identifying male student until about 5 years ago. Again there have always been boys who were almost honorary girls, with predominantly female friends, who usually turned out to be gay. But they never wore female clothes, although they might wear make up/jewellery.

Certainly in the first years of the 2000s emo culture gave both sexes a chance to wear androgynous clothing, have unisex hairstyles, boys to wear make up and girls to wear baggy/masculine clothes and shoes, which seemed to provide a real haven for those who would now be more likely to identify as trans or NB.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 03/09/2022 18:24

Teaching for many decades. First child I encountered was 7 years ago. A boy with mental health problems, abusive family, wanted to become a girl aged 14. We looked online and the DfE pointed schools to Mermaids. They were then recommending assemblies to celebrate cement a child's new identity & demanding that the child had access to changing rooms and toilets of the opposite sex. We looked at our mixed faith/race/sex/class intake and knew we weren't going to do anything so disrespectful. Identified appropriate mixed sex toilet (took over a staff toilet) and a private changing space. The family moved so we didn't implement it. Funnily enough, this very mixed school still has no children believing they've been born in the wrong body while the secondary school (predominantly white middle class intake) 4 miles away has numerous children in every year. Make of that what you will.

onceuponatime7 · 03/09/2022 17:59

*changed

onceuponatime7 · 03/09/2022 17:58

Name changes for this. Taught from 1998 to 2009. Primary then secondary. I have never met one pupil/student with this problem.

Runningintolife · 03/09/2022 17:42

Up until 2014 I worked with adults with Eating Difficulties (many 18-25) and, quite surprisingly (now) did not have any discussions about gender. 2014 onwards I worked in CAMHS and from the outset I was hearing about gender identity issues from a handful of individuals. Now about a third of both dc's friend group have questioned their gender identity or identified as trans or non binary. I also in hindsight find it surprising that I don't recall any of the adults attending our eating disorder service having an autism diagnosis, or more than mild traits. In CAMHS I would say up to a third of children with eating disorders also had an ASD diagnosis or strong traits. I had a trans woman acquaintance at Uni in the 90s.

Plasmodesmata · 03/09/2022 17:41

My anecdote follows.
I taught in a girls' secondary during this decade. .
I did not know of any students questioning their gender whilst I was there.

RosaGallica · 03/09/2022 17:36

FunnyTalks · 03/09/2022 16:57

Can I ask a question back OP?

Do you think general kid culture has become more "gendered"? ie majority of toys and clothing falling into overtly pink /sparkly /princess or blue /camo /dinosaur camps?

It is really really bad right now (source: flustered last minute shoe & rucksack purchasing for children with colourful tastes). Perhaps not in fancy shops. But in high streets and supermarkets, where the vast majority of kids get their stuff from.

Culture generally seems to have become more gendered, with an increased expectation that “sexwork” is a serious career option for women. It even seems to be seen as progressively feminist for women to use sexuality rather than skills to make a living.

Which is odd as being forced into living off sex is exactly what feminism was fighting against years ago.

KnickerlessParsons · 03/09/2022 17:34

I was involved with Guiding for a long time. We get to know the girls in our unite really well, and often have a closer or more equal relationship with them than a teacher might. It's certainly less formal.
The issue of "trans-mess" never came up. We had no men wanting to don a skirt to volunteer either.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/09/2022 17:31

Interesting point about Lego. We had it when I was growing up in the 1960s. I can't remember who it was bought for - my brother, or both of us. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a gift to me. However, once it was in the house we both played with it. In fact I think I played it with more than he did. I suppose if we'd been two girls we'd have been less likely to be given Lego, but I don't remember it being pushed a boys' toy.

Was anyone else teaching or working with children in the decade 2000-2010?
Bobbybobbins · 03/09/2022 17:28

I was a secondary teacher then and am still now.

In that decade (right at the end of it) we had one female child who wanted to be known by a male name. I knew this child well. Once she was 18 she started the process of physically becoming 'male' and now lives as a man.

At this point we have between 50-100 and I think amongst them probably over 80% are either autistic girls or come from very difficult home environments or both.

When I was at school (girls' school) there was an epidemic of eating disorders. Now this seems to have replaced it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/09/2022 17:26

In 2009/10 Tavistock GIDS clinic saw 97 children. I can't find the breakdown by sex which used to be on their website, but from memory that was about 2/3 boys, and that was totally consistent with the experience of psychiatrists/psychologists in this extremely specialist area all over the world.

In 2017/18 they saw 2,519 children and I believe the sex ration had flipped, so about 2/3 were girls.

As for why, if I were a researcher or policymaker in this area, I'd be looking very closely indeed at the influence of social media and the effect on young minds of exposure to extreme porn available online and normalised. Both of those are huge changes from earlier generations.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/09/2022 17:25

I worked with a well known toy manufacturer during the 90’s and the first part of your period. Part of my job was product development and researching products with mothers and children, mainly but not entirely with girls.

The tomboy girl was frequently encountered, in fact we saw a shift away from little housewives and mummies to executives and explorers. Girls wanted to climb Everest, although quite often they thought it would be fine to do this in a ball gown. Some of the girls wanted to play with action man, ( or at least, the gun) some of the boys liked dressing up the dolls as Cinderella.

No one , not researcher, not manufacturer , not parent ever suggested that their child was born in the wrong body. They just thought those children liked more adventurous or more artistic toys.

it was the same story at the international toy fair which we went to every year.

Twizbe · 03/09/2022 17:21

FunnyTalks · 03/09/2022 16:57

Can I ask a question back OP?

Do you think general kid culture has become more "gendered"? ie majority of toys and clothing falling into overtly pink /sparkly /princess or blue /camo /dinosaur camps?

It is really really bad right now (source: flustered last minute shoe & rucksack purchasing for children with colourful tastes). Perhaps not in fancy shops. But in high streets and supermarkets, where the vast majority of kids get their stuff from.

Yes and no.

I was born in the 80s. It was a lot easier to buy neutral baby clothes because 1) no one knew in advance what they were having and 2) they were expensive so you reused them.

BUT play and life after babyhood was very gendered. Girls played with Wendy houses and dolls. We had sylvanians and playmobile. Boys had dinosaurs and Lego and trucks and cars. I even said to my son the other day that when I was little no one would have got Lego for a girl.

At secondary school, boys did their work experience at the local RAF base. Girls did theirs in shops or at local schools.

Boys did football and rugby. Girls did rounders and hockey.

The list goes on.

percypig · 03/09/2022 17:19

I was. I began work as a secondary English teacher in 2000-2001, and never encountered the issue at all, despite teaching literally over 1000 young people in that decade.

The first time I ever taught a young person for whom this was an issue was 3 years ago. The handful of trans or NB pupils I’ve taught since then have all had some sort of issues at home/outside school, poor mental health and/or had ASD.

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