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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Was anyone else teaching or working with children in the decade 2000-2010?

189 replies

BadSkiingMum · 03/09/2022 16:32

I am resolutely gender critical and one of the things that makes it so tricky for me to believe the 'born in the wrong body' idea is that I was a primary teacher for about ten years (from 2000 onwards) and the question of gender identity never arose. Ever.

To give a little context, I was a full time class-teacher for many of those years (across four schools), spending the whole year with 30+ children (so knowing them extremely well) and then taking on management positions where I was involved in reviewing the attainment, progress and wellbeing of dozens of other children. Yet a desire for a child to identify as a different gender to that of his or her biological sex was just not apparent; many children were facing problems such as poverty, broken families, refugee status, learning disabilities, involvement with the social care system, being a young carer... I worked in schools where a significant proportion of children could be described as disadvantaged; in other schools I also taught the children of surgeons, diplomats and bankers. Huge amounts of time were spent in school on initiatives to support children's wellbeing. There were undoubtedly children who had mental health needs and, at the time, budgets were good so services such as school counselling or play therapy were available for some children where there were particular concerns. As a teacher I worked alongside those other professionals and read their reports, yet the issue of gender identity was never, ever mentioned. Other children were receiving support from CAMHS (even a very well-known clinic in London) and the lack of feedback on this topic was the same. Nor was it ever raised in training sessions, professional development meetings or online teaching forums, where I spent a lot of time.

This lacuna is very puzzling to me, as that same generation of children is now in their mid-twenties and a narrative of having 'felt wrong' from an early age seems to be prevalent. If this was so much the case, why did it never arise? Not once, in the many hundreds of children with whom I had contact? Never from colleagues in other schools? I am confident that it would have been discussed, albeit anonymised. Schools were certainly making time and resources available to explore and support wellbeing, so surely it would have emerged? Or are personal histories simply being re-told to suit current identities?

However, for the sake of fairness, it is important to note that, at the time, mental health was generally viewed by schools in terms of how it was impacting upon a child's progress, attainment and behaviour, rather than being an outcome in itself. I think that shift in perspective has been beneficial - I think that children and young people certainly do get more support than hitherto which can only be a good thing - but I also wonder if a certain 'pathologising' of emotions has taken place...

So, arriving at my original point, were you teaching around the same time and were your observations and experiences similar to mine? If not, when did you first notice gender identity politics becoming apparent in schools?

OP posts:
PotatoHammock · 05/09/2022 09:21

I was teaching in a girls' school from 2004-2012. We had our first girl change name and ask to be called "he" in 2010 or 2011 I think. The parents were dead against it, which gave an added layer of difficulty to the issue as at that time most teachers were generally of the mindset of supporting the child.

But as far as I know, there was no talk of hormonal treatments, or binders, or surgery though. And there was no expectation that we should convince other girls that she was now actually a boy (we kept her on in the girls' school!) I don't know if she was diagnosed autistic, but she certainly had many autistic traits.

hatsofftoyouall · 05/09/2022 09:11

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 04/09/2022 22:08

The BBC put out a programme called I am Leo, I think, which seemed to uncritically portray a trans-identifying child, aimed at very young children. Don't know when that was, but several years ago.

  1. Sharp rise in Tavi referrals in the year after.

YouTube algorithms around that time would offer similar content to what you had watched. It's since been changed to try to get "balance."

Treaclemine · 05/09/2022 09:10

pattihews · Yesterday 11:55

One boy I do know is now a woman.

No, he's not. Humans can't change sex.

Oh dear, naughty me, using language so loosely. Of course I know that humans can't change sex. So I should have written "is now identifying as a woman and functioning well and happily in society in that guise, with a job that is useful to the world, and as far as I know not causing any bother to anyone, woman or man. (I also meet the mother of this person frequently, and need to make sure I don't slip up, out of politeness, as I like them, so shorthand thinking is helpful.)

hatsofftoyouall · 05/09/2022 09:08

Name changed

Yes. Never an issue.

Qualified in 2000 primary but had worked in a secondary for a year in 1998 as a ta.

Worked in very deprived areas as a primary then moved to MLD send schools in 2005.

There was one male child (later dx as autistic) in the send school whose main interest was princesses, pink and glitter and long hair. When I taught him ( this was pre 2010) he was becoming frustrated with gender stereotypes, although all children had a lot of dress up and play time during he the day due to the setting and he was allowed to at home too.

As he became more socially aware the frustration grew. I think there were a couple of documentaries around the time about being trapped in the wrong body and this was communicated to him via older teen sibling / the teen's friends - that's your "problem." Which is how he then communicated it to me one day. I did some work on stereotypes with him which helped. Eventually though, he seen by Tavistock a couple of years later who just said he loved fashion, so enjoy fashion! (he was happy in his body.) I do know that help from mermaids was sought which is probably what led to the Tavistock referral.

But this idea he was "wrong" came directly from media documentaries.

If anything in the 2000s we were tackling gender stereotypes a lot in classes. Bill's new frock was a common book to read in literacy in y3.

It's all Social / media contagion and impact of gender stereotypes.

plantsareglorious · 05/09/2022 08:51

I started to see it 2014 with autistic students I was working with.

Tanith · 05/09/2022 08:07

I've been a childminder for many years. It has only recently started to be mentioned in training, and the odd SM post that is usually from newly qualified EY practitioners.
There was a lot of training around diversity and acceptance of parents and their families, but no hint about young children being born in the wrong body - quite the reverse! It was actually something we used to note on children's development: that they knew their correct sex.

Singleandproud · 05/09/2022 07:33

I wonder if the explosion around 6 years ago was due to the affordability of smart phones and the access to tablets. They had been around a while but I didn't get one until DD was about 4 so in 2013, I suspect alot of families couldn't afford it for their teens until around then either. Amazon fires started to become pretty cheap around this time too.

Also there was a big push for 'toys to be toys' and a general moving away from pink and blue stereotypes amongst some parents when Dd was small. I always shopped in the pink section or blue section for DD and never called it the boys or girls section. She wears her hair very short as she doesn't like the feel of it on her neck. I was worried she'd go down the trans route (she has autistic tendencies but not sufficient for a diagnosis) but think she will probably declare herself non-binary at school as I tell her at not to put labels on herself at home and she's very aware of my GC views.

BadSkiingMum · 05/09/2022 06:49

Thanks for those graphs @TastefulRainbowUnicorn! Unfortunately the first link didn’t open for me.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the second link, they give the context for some of those search terms. ‘What is transgender?’ comes up quite high!

That curve for ‘non-binary’ is startling. Not that I know why someone would have been searching for any other meaning - perhaps some poor kid who didn’t see why they had to waste time in maths lessons multiplying 10001010 by 100101010! 😀

OP posts:
StopStartStop · 05/09/2022 06:34

I haven't time to read the Spartacus thread now, but I'll be on it somewhere, probably under a different name. I remember that. 2016. Heck.

StopStartStop · 05/09/2022 06:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 05/09/2022 05:57

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 05/09/2022 05:53

trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Nonbinary

now that’s a classic exponential curve.

I said that, and then I saw it’s levelling off at the end! 😁We may have almost reached the peak. Can I say peak in this context?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 05/09/2022 05:53

trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Nonbinary

now that’s a classic exponential curve.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 05/09/2022 05:46

What was going on in the social-media zeitgeist around that time - was that when Twitter suddenly became the platform that everyone was talking about?

trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Tumblr,Twitter

i thought it might be Tumblr’s fault but it’s not clear from Google Trends

here’s the graph for “trans” and “transgender”. Not an exponential explosion like I expected.

trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=trans,transgender

Cheekymaw · 05/09/2022 01:52

Was not teaching during this time but worked with children and young people during this time who were experiencing difficulties within their families/and or who were involved with the Children's Hearing System(Scotland). Nope, never came up once.

SignOnTheWindow · 05/09/2022 01:07

FunnyTalks · 03/09/2022 16:57

Can I ask a question back OP?

Do you think general kid culture has become more "gendered"? ie majority of toys and clothing falling into overtly pink /sparkly /princess or blue /camo /dinosaur camps?

It is really really bad right now (source: flustered last minute shoe & rucksack purchasing for children with colourful tastes). Perhaps not in fancy shops. But in high streets and supermarkets, where the vast majority of kids get their stuff from.

Actually I think it's slightly better now than it was 15 years ago, when DD was born. It was nigh on impossible, even in expensive shops, to find anything outside the pink & sparkles/blue & camouflage binary.

I ended up getting a few bits from some Scandinavian kids clothes company because they were the only place I could find that did gender neutral clothes in nice bright colours.

SE13Mummy · 05/09/2022 00:33

I've been teaching since 2000, in inner London primary schools. In that time, I have taught one Y4 girl who said she wanted people to think she was a boy. She went by a shortened version of her name commonly used by males and females (think Charlotte to Charlie) but had been called that by her parents since birth so it wasn't really her decision. She had hair long enough to be tied into a ponytail and because there was no school uniform, wore jogging bottoms and t-shirts like most of the boys did (the girls more often wore leggings). 'Charlie' never said she felt like she was a boy, just that she preferred to be treated as one, like her older brother. The only time it could have mattered was for swimming lessons when she wore trunks (Speedo style as specified by the pool we took them to) instead of a one-piece swimsuit. She was prepubescent so there didn't seem any point in making a big deal about it. The register just had the children's names on it and the children were all taught together so the swimming coach would have been unlikely to know that Charlie was a girl. Equally, the coach probably only knew Sammy was a girl because she wore a one piece swimsuit. I don't know what happened when Charlie went to secondary school.

A Y2 boy taught by a colleague recently wore a pinafore to school instead of shorts or trousers. He was very clear that he was a boy but preferred the feel of the dresses as he didn't like the way fabric on shorts/trousers rubbed. He has a very 'male' name - think Bruce or Trevor - but the dress-wearing was very much to do with his sensory needs. He's 7, was happy to tell classmates that he thinks dresses are more comfy and after the initial questions from peers about being a boy but wearing a dress, everyone carried on regardless. He wears shorts for PE, just like everyone else does although his are extra baggy so they don't rub. It will be interesting to see if Bruce/Trevor continues to wear a dress for school when he goes to secondary school.

Usernamenotavailabletryanother · 04/09/2022 23:22

BadSkiingMum · 04/09/2022 20:49

I think I taught in the same area for a while. If it was going to come up anywhere, it would be there - lots of very liberal families and incredibly child-centred - but I encountered nothing whatsoever.

Interestingly, the child was not from an English middle class background. Their parents were extremely distressed by it and had no clue what to do.

IrisAtwood · 04/09/2022 23:12

I was in teaching from 2001 until 2017. I was young, liberal, approachable, taught gender as part of social sciences and biology. I had one child in 2016 decide that they wanted to transition. Over the summer this became non binary. Two years later they returned to the gender assigned at birth and have remained so.

NotTerfNorCis · 04/09/2022 22:24

From the Teen Vogue article upthread:

she loves her female-coded body but doesn’t always feel it accurately represents her

So genderism really is about social stereotypes. It's truly regressive.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 04/09/2022 22:08

The BBC put out a programme called I am Leo, I think, which seemed to uncritically portray a trans-identifying child, aimed at very young children. Don't know when that was, but several years ago.

pattihews · 04/09/2022 21:40

When did Instagram and TikTok start? What were the BBC up to 2015-18?

Imissmoominmama · 04/09/2022 20:57

It terrifies me that had I been born much later, I might have been pushed down the trans route, when really I liked boys clothes because they seemed more comfortable and practical, I liked boys bikes because they looked more exciting, and my friends were boys because of geography.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 04/09/2022 20:55

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread This is a thread in site stuff from 2016. I think it was started in reaction to another thread being deleted. That first thread was the one that really made me realise there was a developing problem in society with gender ideology. The number of children being referred to GIDS was growing hugely by that time, as I mentioned upthread, and the ratio between male and female children had flipped. I'm sure some people would say that previously GIDS only saw a tiny fraction of the children they could have done and once they got extra funding and more people became aware of the issue through social media, thus lessening the stigma and ignorance, they finally started to see the true number. I am far more inclined to believe that this is social contagion. Why else would we have seen huge increases in gender identity issues in two main groups, teenage girls and middle-aged males? Where are the middle-aged females transitioning to a male identity?

My Twitter account dates from around that time and it was a hot topic on Twitter even then, but in the last six years the number of openly gender critical accounts has definitely grown. For once, the UK has been in the forefront in a good way.

BadSkiingMum · 04/09/2022 20:53

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/09/2022 17:26

In 2009/10 Tavistock GIDS clinic saw 97 children. I can't find the breakdown by sex which used to be on their website, but from memory that was about 2/3 boys, and that was totally consistent with the experience of psychiatrists/psychologists in this extremely specialist area all over the world.

In 2017/18 they saw 2,519 children and I believe the sex ration had flipped, so about 2/3 were girls.

As for why, if I were a researcher or policymaker in this area, I'd be looking very closely indeed at the influence of social media and the effect on young minds of exposure to extreme porn available online and normalised. Both of those are huge changes from earlier generations.

Sobering. Very sobering.

OP posts:
partystress · 04/09/2022 20:50

Taught 2009-2015, primary. Two young adult DCs. First encounter was at DS’s secondary school, c 2015. Boy transitioning to become a girl at an all boys school. Social transitioning and then hormones. I remember feeling admiration for the school’s sensitive handling.

I think I would feel differently now. I think schools supporting social transitioning is collusion with a really damaging set of messages. And damaging not just to those ‘transitioning’, but also to all of their peers. The adults in authority in education and health are telling them bodies are wrong and stereotypes are reality. Awful.

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