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Original poster

Was anyone else teaching or working with children in the decade 2000-2010?

189 replies

BadSkiingMum · 03/09/2022 16:32

I am resolutely gender critical and one of the things that makes it so tricky for me to believe the 'born in the wrong body' idea is that I was a primary teacher for about ten years (from 2000 onwards) and the question of gender identity never arose. Ever.

To give a little context, I was a full time class-teacher for many of those years (across four schools), spending the whole year with 30+ children (so knowing them extremely well) and then taking on management positions where I was involved in reviewing the attainment, progress and wellbeing of dozens of other children. Yet a desire for a child to identify as a different gender to that of his or her biological sex was just not apparent; many children were facing problems such as poverty, broken families, refugee status, learning disabilities, involvement with the social care system, being a young carer... I worked in schools where a significant proportion of children could be described as disadvantaged; in other schools I also taught the children of surgeons, diplomats and bankers. Huge amounts of time were spent in school on initiatives to support children's wellbeing. There were undoubtedly children who had mental health needs and, at the time, budgets were good so services such as school counselling or play therapy were available for some children where there were particular concerns. As a teacher I worked alongside those other professionals and read their reports, yet the issue of gender identity was never, ever mentioned. Other children were receiving support from CAMHS (even a very well-known clinic in London) and the lack of feedback on this topic was the same. Nor was it ever raised in training sessions, professional development meetings or online teaching forums, where I spent a lot of time.

This lacuna is very puzzling to me, as that same generation of children is now in their mid-twenties and a narrative of having 'felt wrong' from an early age seems to be prevalent. If this was so much the case, why did it never arise? Not once, in the many hundreds of children with whom I had contact? Never from colleagues in other schools? I am confident that it would have been discussed, albeit anonymised. Schools were certainly making time and resources available to explore and support wellbeing, so surely it would have emerged? Or are personal histories simply being re-told to suit current identities?

However, for the sake of fairness, it is important to note that, at the time, mental health was generally viewed by schools in terms of how it was impacting upon a child's progress, attainment and behaviour, rather than being an outcome in itself. I think that shift in perspective has been beneficial - I think that children and young people certainly do get more support than hitherto which can only be a good thing - but I also wonder if a certain 'pathologising' of emotions has taken place...

So, arriving at my original point, were you teaching around the same time and were your observations and experiences similar to mine? If not, when did you first notice gender identity politics becoming apparent in schools?

OP posts:
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willingtolearn · 10/10/2022 13:18

I have worked with children and young people all my career, including those with Eating disorders.

Eating disorders seems very similar to trans identification - they are about a fear of body changing at puberty and also about retaining control. They are strongly associated with mental distress and trauma.

However we respond to the body dysmorphia that the condition creates rather differently to the way we respond to trans identifying children/young people. We explore the roots of the distress, instead of dangerous affirmation.

@ChristabelHolloway I would explore what you mean by 'trans' - I'm from a catholic background and so familiar with transubstantiation and the different ways in which people view that process.

So is 'trans' a symbolic belief that you have crossed from one set of sex stereotypes to the other? Or is it a truly faith based belief that you 'become' the opposite sex.

I do not believe you can 'trans' in that I do not believe you become the opposite sex. If you define 'transing' as taking on the opposite sex stereotypes I could understand that, but I do not understand why that needs any medical treatment.

I was a gender non conforming child, I have volunteered with a stereotypically male sexed youth group and met many young women who enjoyed exploring the male roles and experiences of this group. In uniform I occasionally could not tell one sex from the other and because surnames were used I did occasionally misgender some of them, which they found amusing. I remember being quite pleased as a child if someone thought I was a boy.

I know that as a troubled teen I would have jumped on this 'trans' train and could have ended up a damaged adult. This would have been a tragedy for me as I have so enjoyed being a mother, not so much a woman.

TheClogLady · 09/10/2022 22:44

True!

borogovia · 09/10/2022 22:39

Boys called all of us lesbians when we rejected them!

TheClogLady · 09/10/2022 18:47

RosaGallica · 02/10/2022 09:29

^Im a little unsure, but this question seems to be more directed at @Onceuponatimethen .

Fwiw I never heard of tomboys being told they were lesbians, at least not outside of universities. I don’t think people questioned sexuality as much prior to the existence of the internet: to put it bluntly most people were not bathed in strange and different ideas daily back then, especially if they were not the sort to hang around with books and libraries anyway. People grew up, got jobs, and got on with daily life.

Boys called us lesbians when we rejected them!

LastnightIdreamtofsomebagels · 09/10/2022 18:42

Just popping on to say I notice NHS groups are starting to back away from Mermaids, which is excellent news. Hope education follows.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/08/nhs-staff-told-not-promote-mermaids-trans-charity/

MissHavershamReturns · 02/10/2022 09:41

@RosaGallica this young person’s parents were very old fashioned. I doubt she would have felt at all comfortable coming out even if she was gay.

reallyisthisallthereis · 02/10/2022 09:34

Been teaching since 1996. First case in school was in 2017. Remember when they changed guidelines for inclusion in about 2016? And remember seeing transgender listed and myself and colleagues raised an eyebrow at that having never seen a case ever in schools. Lo and behold 3 years later, we had several in the school.

RosaGallica · 02/10/2022 09:29

^Im a little unsure, but this question seems to be more directed at @Onceuponatimethen .

Fwiw I never heard of tomboys being told they were lesbians, at least not outside of universities. I don’t think people questioned sexuality as much prior to the existence of the internet: to put it bluntly most people were not bathed in strange and different ideas daily back then, especially if they were not the sort to hang around with books and libraries anyway. People grew up, got jobs, and got on with daily life.

pattihews · 01/10/2022 19:59

RosaGallica · 01/10/2022 19:23

Late to this party, but I knew many girls in the 70s and 80s who were tomboys. The figures now show that most trans are female to boys, now as then. I really think that as a grassroots movement, trans is nothing more than the fully traditional, and entirely rational, rejection from females of their extra burdens supplied by the male gaze, their subordinate position in society, and vulnerability to male violence.

It therefore makes me all the more infuriated that the general societal discussion seems focused on men being allowed to trespass more on the female-centred domains where we can avoid those male-centred burdens, and in fact is focused on forcing women to be ever more vulnerable to men!

Show quote history

Did no one suggest to her that she might be a lesbian? Because there are an awful lot of lesbians who could relate to that. I'm 60 and I know a number of lesbians who say thank goodness they were born at a time when being a tomboy and not wanting to wear skirts and ribbons was respected — without anyone trying to persuade them they were really boys.

RosaGallica · 01/10/2022 19:23

Onceuponatimethen · 25/09/2022 13:09

I came across one young person with gender disphoria pre 2000. This young person would have been born around 1984/5 and they were like Georgina in the Famous Five books. Tomboy who refused ever to wear skirts, very short haircut, refused to answer to their own very feminine first name let’s say Felicity (it wasn’t) and would introduce themselves as a boy - “I’m Alison’s brother, Nick”. I’ve made up these names obviously.

Late to this party, but I knew many girls in the 70s and 80s who were tomboys. The figures now show that most trans are female to boys, now as then. I really think that as a grassroots movement, trans is nothing more than the fully traditional, and entirely rational, rejection from females of their extra burdens supplied by the male gaze, their subordinate position in society, and vulnerability to male violence.

It therefore makes me all the more infuriated that the general societal discussion seems focused on men being allowed to trespass more on the female-centred domains where we can avoid those male-centred burdens, and in fact is focused on forcing women to be ever more vulnerable to men!

TheClogLady · 01/10/2022 16:54

Absolutely Patti - and it would be an utterly genius strategy if it didn’t have the potential to lead to medical and surgical intervention.

The medical establishment needs to stop behaving like vampires and feeding off teenage emotional distress.
Let these kids properly grow up before cutting anything off them.

pattihews · 01/10/2022 15:59

lifeinthelastlane · 25/09/2022 13:00

I think on this thread many of us have met trans people, especially as it's a thread asking for experiences from posters who work in schools. Schools today mostly have girls who wish to be boys rather than the other way around, and it's not hard to see why a girl might feel that way.

This. I was in my local city on a shopping trip on the day the Pride march was scheduled and looking round at all the girls draped in trans flags one thing stood out. All of them were girls who don't meet today's unrealistically high standards of beauty. They were the awkward girls, the unconventional-looking ones: the girls who weren't going to be competing in the pick-me dance for boys. Declaring yourself queer or NB is a brilliant ploy. It makes you interesting and different. You go from minger to special. It confers power: if someone disses you for your gender you can be offended and expect redress. As long as you don't get pulled down the puberty-blockers and cross-sex hormones route you can get through adolescence without worrying about not being pretty enough. Which is why, I suspect, so many young people feel attacked when adults say there's no such thing as NB or queer — because it's what they've built their esteem around. They go into blind panic.

It's obvious and yet when I pointed it out to a friend who was with me it had never occurred to her.

scaredoff · 25/09/2022 18:23

@ChristabelHolloway

But this statement - A "true trans" person has still been badly affected by something growing up. - is just WRONG. And this lies at the heart of many of the posts on here - and it's fundamentally transphobic, in my view. Would you say this about someone who is homosexual? And if not, why not?? This is a real question - if you believe that some people are born homosexual, but nobody is born trans, then please explain the basis for that belief.

Personally I don't particularly believe that people are born homosexual. There's some tentative evidence to that effect but not enough to make a confident claim, IMO. People seem to want to believe that because they think it provides a stronger basis for gay rights. I don't really get that - gay rights should be a no brainer anyway just based on the fact that sexual preferences between consenting adults are nobody else's damn business.

The point here is that a biological basis for homosexuality is not actually necessary to justify anything people have wanted to DO about homosexuality - like decriminalising it, introducing same sex marriage, fighting discrimination in the workplace etc. A belief in a biological basis for transgenderism, however, IS necessary to justify advocating medical solutions as the first line response to it. It's even necessary to justify social transitioning of children: if gender identity is not an innate biological "thing" then a boy saying he feels more like a girl could just be left to "see what happens" while adults make clear that when they call him a boy, they're referring to his sex and nothing more. The need to move him over lock stock and barrel to the female social "category" is all based on the idea that his gender claim indicates a permanent, essential, biological fact, so failing to confront that fact now will just cause more problems later.

WarriorN · 25/09/2022 16:41

He wore dresses and makeup in private, and told me about the freedom he felt when he wore a skirt. He envied girls their curves, their breasts and so on, and disliked his straight-up-and-down frame. He had a female online identity which he kept secret as well as a public male one.

This wasn't gender dysphoria. He was grappling with something else there.

AgnestaVipers · 25/09/2022 16:40

@ChristabelHolloway The fact that none of the kids you worked with told you they thought they were trans is NOT evidence that none of them were.

The fact that I have never seen any evidence of God doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Yours is a faith-based dogma, and it's dangerous nonsense.

Also, anyone trained in safeguarding knows that one cannot offer children total confidence. However, despite that, I had several students come out to me as gay all that time. Why? Because I am a lesbian (it's obvious to the gay kids - they have gaydar). And no, I wasn't gender critical then because I had no need to be. No one was going around pretending we can change sex, and nor were they nodding along as physically healthy teens said they wished to be surgically altered so as to make their feelings go away.

WarriorN · 25/09/2022 16:38

Even on Reddit they know that psychs will explore the "root cause" of their gender dysphoria. (The below happened to come into an email suggestion on reddit in transgender U.K.)

To do the same and compare to homosexuality would be outright conversion therapy.

I saw a post recently asking about a particular U.K. consultant who rejected the patient as they didn't think they had gender dysphoria.

Homosexuality isn't a medical condition.

But anorexia and bulimia are and both are known to have a mix of social pressures, peer / SM influence, and often particular personality types including very intelligent yp and some with autism.

Was anyone else teaching or working with children in the decade 2000-2010?
WarriorN · 25/09/2022 16:29

Have you ever actually met a trans person, WarriorN? Rather than just reading about them? Perhaps they're fictional.

Yes. One is v honest about their past and it's v clear to see, to them too and they discuss it freely, what was the cause of their dysphoria.

Also, is there anyone who hasn't had an early experience of sexism?

No but it's not rocket science if you work with young children and teens that we are all v different in terms of personality and experiences. As you should know, some children are more vulnerable to peer pressure, impact of stereotypes, social anxiety, media and social media, perfectionism, mental health challenges, trends and everyone has their own personality.

I note that you've neatly evaded my queries about similarities to body dysmorphia and anorexia.

I'm doubting your claimed credentials tbh.

9toenails · 25/09/2022 16:17

ChristabelHolloway you ask, "...if you believe that some people are born homosexual, but nobody is born trans, then please explain the basis for that belief.

The difference between being homosexual and being trans is clear. As follows.

A claim of a particular sexuality is self-validating because if (for example) I, a man, sincerely claim I am attracted to another man, I am in fact so attracted. This is because of what 'attracted' means, or if you like, because of what being attracted is.

However, if I, a man, sincerely claim I am a woman, my claim, far from being self-validating, is simply false, as there are no human hermaphrodites.

A claim such that, if sincerely made, must be true, is clearly different in kind from a claim such that, (even) if sincerely made, must be false. No?

DameMaud · 25/09/2022 16:14

I hope its viewable!? I think the title might be stopping it from being shown but hopefully the link works.

DameMaud · 25/09/2022 16:12

ChristabelHolloway · 25/09/2022 12:45

Thanks again, BadSkiingMum.

Yes, I'll try. It's quite a while ago but I retain the gist :)

The older boy, a very academic university student, was a pretty conventional male 19 year old in terms of his appearance and presentation, though he had long hair (not uncommon then). He very much wanted to experience what it was to be a girl. He had always felt closer to girls than to boys in terms of interests, emotional responses, attitudes and so on. He found other boys boorish, emotionally stunted and boring. Since he was clear-thinking and articulate he was able to express all this very well, though he was still embarrassed and somewhat ashamed to talk about it.

He came from an utterly unremarkable middle-class background and had a straight younger brother. I always encouraged clients to spend some time considering how their family might have influenced them, but as far as I could see there was nothing here that would have "caused" him to feel this way.

His sexual orientation was very much straight, and he'd had girlfriends, including sex. He had never told them about his trans leanings and was understandably very worried about what it would mean for his relationships and sex life if he did.

He wore dresses and makeup in private, and told me about the freedom he felt when he wore a skirt. He envied girls their curves, their breasts and so on, and disliked his straight-up-and-down frame. He had a female online identity which he kept secret as well as a public male one.

What he wanted was to be able to present himself as a girl in society but to be able to continue to have romantic and sexual relationships with females - straight females, not lesbians. And he was more than aware of all the problems that posed.

We didn't get past the exploration stage in our counselling sessions (it was not long-term counselling) but he did express relief at being able to talk about this to someone who didn't judge him.

The other boy was much younger and less able to express himself. Again, I couldn't see anything obvious in his background that "caused" him to want to be a girl. He was at an age where other boys were beginning to discover girls and he was attracted to them too. He just wished he was a girl.

I think part of the difficulty for most of us is that it's quite clear what homosexuality is - you are attracted to your own sex rather than the opposite sex (in reality it may not always be that straightforward but it's a valid working assumption). But understanding how a trans person feels and thinks is much more challenging. My counselling style was always very much about trying to empathise with clients and see things from their point of view, so I heard what these boys said without necessarily fully "understanding". I just knew that it was so, for them.

I hope this is helpful, and if there's anything you'd like me to clarify, please ask.

Show quote history

Thanks @ChristabelHolloway
Please (anyone/MNHQ) don't be put off by the title of the vid I am linking here.
It's a personal/subjective story and not by any means as inflammatory as it sounds!

Your description Cristabel, reminded me of a video I'd seen ages ago and have just managed to find it again. It's a young man describing, bravely, and with huge self awareness his experience that sounds very similar to the 19 year old you spoke about.
The very understanding comments under the video are worth reading too.
I can totally imagine his experience is something that pre dates the current climate and can see how hard that would be disclose.

I'm a seeker type and am really trying to understand the root and reality of issues and found this much food for thought.

How understanding of this fits in with the debate all round I'm not sure, but would be interested on yours and anyone else's thoughts?

TheClogLady · 25/09/2022 15:16

BadSkiingMum · 25/09/2022 14:45

I'm troubled to hear about these other teachers sharing all this sensitive personal information with you, too. Where was the privacy and protection for the families you worked with?
@ChristabelHolloway
They were sharing this information as part of professional conversations around a child’s educational or well-being needs. For example, a child’s class teacher sharing information or concerns with me as their line manager/key-stage, or as a member of SLT. All entirely appropriate.

Sounds like normal team-working good practice to me!

Particularly important in safeguarding issue situations.
No one adult, no matter how well intended they are, should be keeping concerns about a child’s well-being to themselves.

What if say, school counsellor x was the only adult holding important, sensitive information about child y and they had a car accident on the way to work and spent 6 weeks in hospital?

What would happen to child y in that time period? What if counsellor x didn’t return to work for 6 months, or a year?

Child y could be moved out of school or out of area with no appropriately trained and professionally engaged adult looking out for them at all.

It doesn’t bear thinking about it.

Thank fuck the UK has a proper framework for disclosing, reporting and for multi disciplinary input.

I believe it’s far more variable in the US as it’s a state by state provision. I know our system is far from perfect but we do hopefully learn a new lesson every time a system fails a child, in order to minimise further failures moving forward.

Original poster
BadSkiingMum · 25/09/2022 14:45

I'm troubled to hear about these other teachers sharing all this sensitive personal information with you, too. Where was the privacy and protection for the families you worked with?
@ChristabelHolloway
They were sharing this information as part of professional conversations around a child’s educational or well-being needs. For example, a child’s class teacher sharing information or concerns with me as their line manager/key-stage, or as a member of SLT. All entirely appropriate.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 25/09/2022 14:07

At secondary school, boys did their work experience at the local RAF base. Girls did theirs in shops or at local schools.

Boys did football and rugby. Girls did rounders and hockey.

It’s interesting that as the gendered stereotypes have gone DOWN in adult life as a result of being legislated away in employment law etc (and as a knock on, schools have shifted towards a more equal offering across a variety of subjects) the gendered stereotypes in toys and games, so childhood life, has gone UP.

it would be conspirational nutbag stuff to imagine it’s been done on purpose to silo girls back into a lifetime of aesthetically pleasing subservience before they are old enough to consciously reject it but even as an accident is does seem like a way for male supremacy to reassert itself in a world where it’s getting harder and harder to argue that men are superior to women by any sort of intellectual measurement (obvs still, on average, bigger, faster and stronger because: mammals)

KweenieBeanz · 25/09/2022 13:32

Twizbe · 03/09/2022 17:21

Yes and no.

I was born in the 80s. It was a lot easier to buy neutral baby clothes because 1) no one knew in advance what they were having and 2) they were expensive so you reused them.

BUT play and life after babyhood was very gendered. Girls played with Wendy houses and dolls. We had sylvanians and playmobile. Boys had dinosaurs and Lego and trucks and cars. I even said to my son the other day that when I was little no one would have got Lego for a girl.

At secondary school, boys did their work experience at the local RAF base. Girls did theirs in shops or at local schools.

Boys did football and rugby. Girls did rounders and hockey.

The list goes on.

Show quote history

Um, girl here, born in the 80's, had loads of Lego as did all my friends, girls and boys? And I didn't have 'girly' Lego sets I just had a huge box of assorted bricks in all different colours.

Queuesarasarah · 25/09/2022 13:20

Yes I was and also no I never once came across it. I had lots of children who were what might be called now ‘gender non conforming’ but they were perfectly content to be boys who liked pink and girls who enjoyed rough and tumble. I trained in a very feminist place and it would have been considered very poor to sex segregate toys or interests. Those were all thought to be social constructs and damaging to reinforce in any way. It was indeed a very different time.

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