Trans woman’s victory in female snooker sparks fairness row (Times, 2 Sep)

Horses definitely don't do all the work, that was not the the point I was trying to make. But riding is a skill sport and the shared effort with the horse evens out the physical disparity between human males and females enough to make it meaningful for them to compete. Males still have all the physical strength advantages but when sat on a horse they become less important. And I think there are advantages to female physiology when riding, particularly dressage where hip width and flexibility can impact one's ability to absorb the movements and sit in a balanced way. I can ride the wide, powerfully moving horse we have better than my DH can... his hips are not wide enough to sit straight on her and his lower back and hips are not flexible enough to absorb the movement of her back. He can wrestle with her better than me but you don't get the same quality of work when you wrestle it out of them.

Horse racing is a different ball game really and not what I think of when I say equestrianism BUT the female jockeys DO do well now they are allowed the opportunity. So I think the playing field is probably even enough for meaningful competition over there in horse racing space too.

To me it's an interesting discussion and I could go on. But what is relevant here is that mixed sex competition HAS evolved in horse sports (I really need to look Into the actual history here). It HASN'T happened in snooker despite the competition being Open and women being allowed to compete. This tells me that there is too much male advantage (whatever features that manifests from) for meaningful competition in snooker. However strange that may seem to some. Therefore a female category is needed and if it exists then it should exclude transwomen on account of them being male.

Very well said. You have summed it all up entirely logically and clearly. The fact that this point even needs to be made makes me wonder how it can be that so much of normal society is twisting themselves up in ridiculous mind games to justify an alternative reality which denies the blatantly obvious.

Re: the horse does the work

I have been involved in horse racing for many years. I think the consensus would be that many males have more upper body strength than females, and that the weight distribution is probably more effective. As the females gain early access to training facilities, quite a lot of this advantage is negated.

OTOH , many trainers would say that female riders ‘ get more out of a horse’, they tend to ‘listen ‘ to what the horse is doing, communicating through its action. They work with the horse and persuade it to go, rather than attempting to dominate .
Of course, the bitter resentment and sexism amongst many, many male jockeys tends to negate this advantage.

Unsurprisingly you're entirely wrong.

Jamie was shit when playing against men. Now playing against women, Jamie is winning all the prizes

Rebecca - congratulations on your win! Sorry to hear you were cheated out of your prize money.

Absolutely!

@TwoLeftSocksWithHoles
😂😂😂

Womens divisions in sports do not exist because of how women feel/dress/style their hair/do their make up.

Womens divisions in sport exist because of the biological differences that make it almost impossible for them to have a chance in a contest against biological men.

Men cannot change their biological reality even if they decide they don't want to present as a man, so there is never a good reason for them to take part in womens sports.
The reason they don't belong in womens sports will always exist & drugs/surgery/ideology do not change that.

But the evidence is seen every year. How do you explain that women haven't broken into the progressing levels of the main tour games?

Woman aren't 'nearly making it'.

Snooker is dominated by experienced pros, like 40+ year old Ronnie O Sullivan. Reanne Evans and Marie Catalano have both been playing for a couple of decades too.

How do you explain that experienced female pros haven't made it and we don't know their names?

CatherinaJTV

Are you claiming that there are no physical advantages that males could have over females in snooker?

Or are you able to access peer reviewed studies that show there is no sex difference in spatial awareness (to which as I posted above, I am referring to that of direct path choices not Mental rotation aspects). Because if you have a study in mind, please post it so we can see that it is indeed "talking women down".

I don't know the specifics of that example.

However many physical differences exist between female and male humans.

I don't believe that acknowledging them is "talking women down". All humans have equal worth, regardless of physical difference.

I want to work towards a society where bigger and stronger don't automatically equal better. I believe in equity, which is equality of outcome rather than simply equality of opportunity.

My anecdata is that when I met my partner he weighed 3 stone less than me, smoked weed and did no exercise. I was tall, slim, toned, into running and the gym. We used to wrestle for fun and he beat me every single time. It was a big shock because I'd assumed it was anti-feminist to know that males were physically stronger. So I had sort of "unknown" that fact. I was absolutely certain I'd beat him - my muscles really bulk up when I'm fit and he is made of string - but I never, ever could.

I realise in hindsight that I had never been exposed to actual feminist thought. Just a confusing early 21st century mix of lad culture, "girl power" and queer theory.

Quite - it is astonishing how ready some are to talk women down...

I lived in a village with a social club when I was young and women were not allowed to play snooker. In case we ripped the baize, apparently.

No doubt snooker tables are designed with the default body of the male human in mind, like so much else in our world. That alone disadvantages most females.

Do you think that all sports should be mixed sex?
Currently equestrian sports are but most others aren't. Do you there is a reason most sports separate humans by sex?

I think that this is rather interesting.

FionaMacCool, your link regarding spatial awareness was mental rotations testing. It is interesting as I have seen studies that show male advantage in MRT. I also used to work in a mapping company and there was studies we knew about 20 years ago. So, it is interesting to see this paper you linked up.

I did a very quick search, because to me, MRT is not quite the spatial awareness that I thought KentuckyKate was referring to. I assumed that angles and pathways etc was the spatial awareness they were referring to. And in the top results was this study.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304985/

Sex differences in spatial navigation and perception in human adolescents and emerging adults

25 November 2014

Jennifer Tropp Sneider , Derek A. Hamilton, Julia E. Cohen-Gilbert, David J. Crowley, Isabelle M. Rosso, and Marisa M. Silveria

They used both the MRT and the Water Maze Test and found sex based differences in both. But, particularly males performed better at the Water Maze Test (slightly in younger males, but significantly in adult males)

I am thinking that breathing may impact on very fine aiming skills between male and female too. Larger lung capacity in males could give males a longer time between breaths to make fine changes to accuracy for that level of competition. I wonder if that also would play a part in this.

anotherbrewplease as we are going for anecdote my DP is 5'6 too and I can bet he is stronger and faster than you. Despite being a middle aged man who doesn't train too much he regularly places alongside elite women. All my training this week has been scrapped due a blood bath period and pain, something a TW will never have to deal with.

If I identify as a dog I wonder if I can enter myself for Crufts?

Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure that I'd fair that well in the agility competition. Maybe I could just scamper up and down and win the audiences hearts (I'd wear a furry suit with floppy ears and everything.)🐩

Agree with all this.

It shouldnt even veb really matter if there's an advantage in snooker or not.

Its just the height of selfishnessand entitlement that we now have mens sport amd mixed sport.

Why can't women have their own sports. Piss off out of them.males.

@KentuckyKate please do provide peer reviewed references for these claims.
Based on a sample group of 3 (my DC) I can say without any doubt that women have better spatial awareness and are calmer under pressure.

....oh! look- Neuroscience News (neurosciencenews.com/spatial-cognition-sexes-15576/) have some research that shows " Summary: Despite popular belief, men are not better (or worse) than women at spatial cognition tasks. However, men and women approach mental rotational tasks in different ways. "
....oh! look- www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/neuroscience-women-smarter-than-men.html ....women are better under stress?
Hmmmm.

for me it's not just about physical issues, it's about the fact that women in snooker is newer, less expected - all the other disadvantages that women face when stepping outside of sexist stereotypes. But if we went down your route then there is no reason for men and women categories - should just be one open to all. If there is a women's category, it should just be for women. There was no reason for Jamie not to be competing with the other males.

It was a woman’s competition. What don’t you understand?

The fact that women are disadvantaged in snooker in some way is evidenced by history. We don't need to pin down the mechanism by which they are disadvantaged to see that they are.

IF they weren't disadvantaged we'd have seen women winning the open tournaments years ago... like they have been doing in the equestrian world where I think women, having been prohibited initially, just started going "no I'm as good as you are so I'm playing", did so and started winning. Equestrian sports are probably the only sports where the playing field is levelled enough, where you get women consistently in the top ranks, for mixed sex competitions to be considered fair. I won't go into a ramble but it is possible there is some advantages for a female body and even more female distributed personality traits in equestrianism. Possibly.

It doesn't really matter the evidence is in the distribution of prizes in an open competition.

It is interesting to contemplate the mechanisms and reasons but we don't need to find them in order to justify keeping males out of women's categories where such categories exist. They are there for a reason!

Oh well done. In your rush to remonstrate, you forgot to do any type of research or even just critical thinking.

What a surprise!

Yes. at that level of competition, there are quite a number of advantages a male will have over females. You only have to think of the mechanics of the game to see it.

I’d have thought it would be obvious to anyone who’s seen a full-sized snooker table and cue that males would have an advantage. But, as someone who’s observed men watching sport over many, many years, I think I can say with confidence that they are not too great at staying calm under pressure.