Trans woman’s victory in female snooker sparks fairness row (Times, 2 Sep)

If men have no advantage over women, why are there any women-only tournaments?

Is that really is the governing body's argument? Do you have a link? If that is what they said they obviously can't see the contradictions.

Either:
Men have no advantage over women - all events should be mixed

or:
Men do have an advantage, so a separate women-only category is appropriate as well as the open one. Men should be barred from this because of their advantage.

What they seem to have said is:
Men have no advantage, but we'll have a separate women-only category which men can also enter.

Ridiculous.

The governing body offered their congratulations to her.

See this is where the 'factual' wheels fall off.

"Stick to the facts"

Jamie entered the competition and won it.

She did so because the governing body after seeking medical advice classified itself as a precision sport.

The governing body offered their congratulations to her.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean that as a direct quote and reading back, it should read transmen, not transwomen. I was meaning to make the point that I do appreciate that transmen will be excluded from female sport if they take testosterone.

So what?

The point you raise is irrelevant to this instance.

Those females are excluded under the doping regulations.

They are NOT excluded because they are trans.

It is totally irrelevant whether they are living full time or not as their interpretation of a woman.

It is totally relevant why language needs to be clear.

Hunter is male. Can never be female. Full time, part time- irrelevant. Stick to the facts. Stop using emotional manipulation to try to make your point.

"This is a straw man"

This was a response to a poster demanding evidence that transwomen have advantages in certain sports ( not snooker)

"I was referring more to your comment about transwomen who might hold off taking testosterone in order to compete"

I neither said that not implied it. I referred only to the justification given for transmen being banned from women swimming events.

It's well known that transmen who transition after puberty have physical advantage in some sports and were recently banned from competing in women's swimming events for that reason.

Yes. Testosterone is a documented performance enhancer in females.

A female taking testosterone is treated as a ‘doper’. Why shouldn’t they be?

Otherwise, they are not excluded and no feminists I know are campaigning for any female not on testosterone to be excluded from the female category relevant to their age, experience etc.

This is a straw man.

Seems like a deeply cynical view.

Well human beings don't always act with noble intentions. I'm not sure why we'd expect TW to be different from the rest of the humanity in this regard. Sometimes, some will be acting cynically in their interests.

I was referring more to your comment about transwomen who might hold off taking testosterone in order to compete.

"Rushing children into making life altering decisions is a scandal"

Jamie transitioned in 2019 so is hardly a child .

Exactly! I can know for sure I'm a woman!

It's really irrelevant whether Jamie feels like a woman or not. We cannot allow participation on the basis of how someone feels. We don't do that for any other category.

Surely one of the joys of sport is the way it shows us how amazing the human body and mind can be. It sends a wonderful message that we do not need to medically correct anyone or treat our body like an illness if we feel it is a wrong match for our identity. ( How can that even be possible?) Rushing children into making life altering decisions is a scandal. If a few children hold off from taking medication to block puberty so that they can compete in sports and then decide on what's right for them as adults I would say that was a good, positive, healthy thing.

She may be trying to live as a woman to the extent she is able to

How does a man live as a woman?

It's well known that transmen who transition after puberty have physical advantage in some sports and were recently banned from competing in women's swimming events for that reason.

I suspect that transition would include taking cross sex hormones, not just declaring themselves trans. Any women taking those drugs would be banned, regardless of gender identity.

The women's completion was set up to promote participation so it seems this currently includes trans people. This may change in time.

It was set up to help women to participate. Not mediocre men. It should be open to transmen who have grown up with the same disadvantages as other women.

"whether he simply feels that pretending he is a woman full time is a sacrifice he's willing to make in order to win snooker competitions"

Seems like a deeply cynical view. I don't know Jamie obviously but she may take offence that she is pretending to be a woman like she's an actor of some kind. She may be trying to live as a woman to the extent she is able to, but as you say there is no way to know for sure.

"Who are you that you think your beliefs are of such importance?"

I never said my beliefs are importance. I don't make decisions on who can enter snooker or any other sports completions.

It's well known that transmen who transition after puberty have physical advantage in some sports and were recently banned from competing in women's swimming events for that reason.

Who are you that I must justify my beliefs to you?

But thats by the by, all it shows is that we cant continue to pretend that men can become women and it not harm women

Exactly. We need to stop the lying.

Walkden is right in the sense that he isn't breaking any rules - the rules have be changed to accommodate males. I would argue that proves the sporting bodies are deeply misogynistic and trans people aren't discriminated against if they can get fundamental classes changed so easily, while women are ignored.

But thats by the by, all it shows is that we cant continue to pretend that men can become women and it not harm women. We need government across the world to recognise and sort out the mess they've created.

@Walkden You,ve illustrated the dilemma beautifully by your use of the word 'apparently'. There is no way of knowing whether Jamie truly believes that he is now a woman or whether he simply feels that pretending he is a woman full time is a sacrifice he's willing to make in order to win snooker competitions.

"Either the category is mixed or single sex."

As I understand it the the main snooker competitions are open to both sexes anyway so gender is irrelevant for these

The women's completion was set up to promote participation so it seems this currently includes trans people. This may change in time.

However. It may also be harmful to change to a sex based approach as most clubs are dominated by men making it difficult for women to practice and use them as I suspect it propagate clubs being male only under the guise of "fairness"

He still has make chromosomes obviously but I do not believe these give him a physical advantage in snooker but they would in athletics football etc....

Who are you that you think your beliefs are of such importance?

Can you post any research which backs up your belief?