Old straight men and genderism

An older colleague of mine certainly doesn’t believe TWAW, I know from previous conversations with him — but in recent months I notice he’s started to go along with it, largely because (a) he wants to look “with it”; and (b) a contemporary of his “came out” as a TW and, you know, if a boomer male does it there must be something in it, you know 🤦‍♀️

In this set-up, the men get to "live" and the women get to "let live".

Brilliant- going to remember this.

People I know in real life, regardless of age, who support what they think is ‘trans rights’ don’t actually understand what it is they are supporting. They just haven’t looked into it at all.

My DH is nearly 70. When he first came across this he thought it must be true because,: 'but they couldn't go in the men's toilets.' A lifetime of being told what a man was supposed to be like made him compute that a woman is 'not a man' therefore TWAW.

He also worked with an old-school transexual several decades ago and believed what he was told by the colleague.
His position is radically different now, but many men simply don't look into it enough to make an informed opinion.

Most of them haven't thought about it too hard.

The same is true of plenty of women.

The women most affected by TW entering their spaces don't have much status in society unfortunately. Prisoners, abuse victims, orthodox religious. They aren't high on people's priorities.

Which is why I think women's sports are a very important sphere to shift public opinion.

The other aspect that people don't know about is how few TW actually have surgery. A TW with a penis is quite a different prospect to one without.

I believe in live and let live, but not if it’s to the detriment of others people’s ability to live their lives safely, healthily and happily. Most trans activist demands compromise the well-being of women and children.

I think some of these men are being hip and are after woke points, some haven’t thought it through and are just ‘being kind’, and some genuinely (secretly) think women are just lipstick and high heels and males should come first. Some have a fetish. Some have a tw friend. Oh and some think a man ‘becoming a woman’ still entails chopping your penis off, and are so horrified by that that they think tw deserve everything the activists demand.

My DH is that age. He was a little slow off the mark, his oldest friend is an old fashioned transvestite. But once we had a proper conversation about the difference between him, our gender bending youth and the current TWAW stuff he got very angry, very quickly.

Men have no business being in women's spaces, jobs, sports etc. They are men.

You may have spoken to a man with a similar background. Gender bending was ubiquitous and came hard on the heels of glam. Decades of men presenting their 'feminine' side, wearing women's clothes and still being very male.

The simple idea of widening what it means to be male is an impossible head-fuck to many.

It will not compute.

insert

i had a similar discussion years ago with my dad and dh

they both agreed that if a man had is penis removed it made him a woman

i said ‘ to make sure ive got this straight, if in some sort of tragic accident your penis was chopped off youd now be a woman?’

obviously their views changed immediately 🤔 idiots

I think they put anything that doesn't fit in their idea of What A Man Is into their Woman box. DH was like this for a long while. He felt a transitioning colleague "wasn't a man anymore," so therefore was a woman.

We eventually thrashed out that obviously no one changes sex, and being a woman was dependent on being female. We're a whole separate sex, not just "non-men." Transwomen as a subsection of gender-non-conforming males is nothing like life as an adult female human.

Old, straight men are often homophobic. It is easier for them to think of an effeminate man as 'not a man' and therefore, a woman.

They have no interest in considering how actual women feel about this because women are inferior and therefore of little importance.

It's not new.

Because they're used to centering men's needs.

To be fair, I'm used to centering women's needs (after a lot of societal deprogramming) which probably meant I became GC more quickly, and that I'm not one of those be kind, everyone gets a seat at the table feminists. So I guess men are allowed to be the same.

But the other thing, as a pp said, is gender stereotypes. In their minds, both trans men and trans women are so far away from what a man is, that they have to be 'other'.

And they just like shouting at women on Twitter.

My daddy does not hate women, he does have a transwoman, who has apparently had all the surgery, as a friend

he just doesn’t think about the potential impact and to be fair neither do a lot of younger people

he is learning though….actually we went to a small theatre the other day and as is usual with these places all the bogs had been repurposed, so the ladies was ‘cubicles’ and the gents was ‘cubicle and urinals’ i was in the queue for the ladies with a lad behind me when I realised my dad was about to join the queue. I said ‘not this one…the other has urinals’ and he left the queue…as did the lad behind me who obviously didnt want to go in the ladies either!

(another recent time we spent to see dd end of year show and i went in to the bog to find dd, ds1 and dds teacher in there! 😀)

A lot of my age group assume that trans is something that gay ppl do in extremis. And we've just voted - 2015 - massively for Gay Marriage.

Yes and the gender identity lobby has made a huge effort to equate being trans with being gay - force teaming them as "LGBT" and the common claim that people who object to gender identity now are just like the bigots who didn't like gays 50 years ago and it's the exact same phenomenon, that it is simply "hatred of what you don't understand" and "anti-trans". No modern, left-leaning person wants to be like that, especially if as a PP said, they did have homophobic views in the past and now want to make up for it.

For the casual 'live and let live' ones, it's a matter of not having given any thought to, or just not empathising with, women's experiences and how the redefinition if 'womanhood' impacts us, or why single sex provision is sometimes needed or desired.

For the ones who turn out to protest women talking, or who dedicate their twitter presence to championing 'trans rights' and demonising feminists, the motivation is blatant misogyny with the convenient cover of calling it a progressive rights movement.

The former group are frustrating and disappointing. The latter group are disgusting.

You're quite right. I myself had no idea Morris was married with children and I've been reading his travel stuff for decades. Only found out from the obituary.

A lot of my age group assume that trans is something that gay ppl do in extremis. And we've just voted - 2015 - massively for Gay Marriage. A lot of posters are ascribing bizarre convoluted motivations to oppress women behind these simple self explanatory facts.

Whereas older women share the same outlook in general. Now most young trans are FtM but this isn't even on the radar hereabouts. Because the high profile males are hogging the media spotlight.

I asked my uncle and he said "women are better at dealing with those sorts"
So there you go

Maybe they are just trying to be tolerant?

perhaps they don’t understand the challenges that come with the underlying ideology.

there are a range of possible explanations, but this is by far both the simplest and most plausible

Because they don’t care.

My BIL is a raging misogynist. He thinks rape and sex trafficking are women’s problems that women need to fix.

He also believes that transgender women are women’s problems to fix.

This man has two daughters and two granddaughters 🤷🏼‍♀️

I think 3 things:

1. They don't see men who transition as men (that's not to say that they see them as women either, because I don't believe that they do).
2. Porn. I would have to wonder what they were masturbating to.
3. It is quite clear if you look at some of the interactions on twitter just how many men enjoy female distress. It's not about TW at all, it's about the fact that this is something that middle aged women find deeply upsetting, and a lot of men find that very entertaining.

For my dad (early 60s) I think his initial TWAW stance was because he was - quite rightly - regretful about being homophobic for much of his life and thought being trans was the same as being gay so was all for being supportive to make up for the past.

Then there was also a massive element of his own ignorance. He literally thought all TW have had FULL surgery in order to be TW, so felt they were 'safe' to be in changing rooms, etc, with women. One night several years ago my very tumblr influenced sister got into an argument with me about it and I set them all straight. I'd imagine he'd still be saying stuff like 'be kind' if I hadn't pointed him towards MOJ statistics & fair play for women.

Yes I think it's a mixture of these. For a certain type of older, conservative-thinking bloke (who are quite common and include many men who see themselves as socialists/lefties):

They don't necessarily understand the reality of being trans today, you can be a rapist who decided to announce you're a woman and that's that you are.

They have traditional chauvinist views about what makes a man, so they're happy to "write off" any male being feminine in some way as a woman.

But most of all - they harbour deep resentment against women and especially, feminists and feminism, for taking away or challenging what they see as their right to be served domestically and sexually by a woman (even if they wouldn't admit that) and in quite a few cases, these older men have been upped and left by women who realised they could say "fuck this shit". A movement that legitimises intimidating women, invading their spaces and casting feminists as the bad guys is like catnip to them. They love the chance to pontificate at women for not being "kind" and "inclusive" while not having a clue about what's going on and why it's problematic.