Lesbians not welcome at Gay Pride

There shouldn’t have been a ‘but’ in that first sentence.

Though the big difference here is that I am not trying to change public policy but on the basis of what I am saying I made up. So no, no comparison there!

What I am doing is nearer to a hypothesis. You know, where people come up with possible explanations and explore them. That’s the difference between where I am at and what you are ( wrongly) comparing me to.

And the whole point of what the TRA movement is doing is to scare people out of thinking critically. If you say ANYTHING which challenges this you are a hateful bigot ( and no one wants to be one of those, do they? Especially kind and open minded liberal types such as myself). It is exactly the same as the tailors telling everyone that if the can't see the Emperor's New Clothes they are stupid! It's a strategy as old as humanity!

But that's the point isn't it? You made that up to make a point. There is now an abundance of made up theory which sounds quite plausible - I completely fell for the possibility of the female brain in a male body idea for a while. But it's all MADE UP. It's also out there and young people are reading it and absorbing it and believing it to be true. And instead of being older and wiser and more critical, many policy makers are also taking all this made up theory seriously. ' Well it sounds plausible so there must be something in it'.

It only becomes obvious when you start to think critically.

As my DH says to me when I mention all the problems being caused by the adoption of gender ideology; 'Well it's patently obvious isn't it, why did it take you so long to wake up?'

Yes, people with sex dysphoria should have access to treatment to help them manage that dysphoria.

twitter.com/mcdonnelljp/status/1566481668076195841?s=21&t=9mg6THYSVyNlX1z6F-ANyw

Is Dresden Pride part of the same organisation?

It obviously is part of the same movement for certain.

Can everyone see it? The love and tolerance of the particular group of LGBT+ people some posters are celebrating?

Who needs to quibble about where the stats come from. When we have posters celebrating a gay male being assaulted, abused and harassed at Pride recently for wearing a shirt with the LGB Alliance logo, celebrating the lesbians from GetTheLOut having their banners attacked and them being harassed and abused.

I wonder if they also celebrated lesbians in Bordeaux marches being attacked with flares, and whether they will be back to celebrate this sign of wonderful tolerance and solidarity?

It is also eye opening. The events and incidents that some people
will ignore from people they celebrate actively supporting, while they vilify and demonise people who don’t agree with them….

Tolerance is another one of those words that have been redefined, I think.

No it not what I mean.

You clearly missed the bit where I said ‘Obviously I made made this up’ . Or chose to ignore it to enable an opportunity to be sneery.

I haven’t said that at all.

If you are a male person with a certain type of brain - perhaps you are empathetic or have an eye for colour - then that's you, and that's an example of a male brain.

Yeah, that's the thing I really don't get as well.

That people could observe, quite rightly, that some of the brains that grow as part male bodies think a way society doesn't expect a man to think, or the way that person thinks men must think, but instead of concluding "oh, I guess men are more varied than we thought" it's all "oh that means you must actually be a women, which must mean we've totally misunderstood what men and women are since the dawn of time"

They never ask themselves why we would even have this idea of men and women in the first place, if it wasn't from observing the different types of body?

Do they really believe that somehow humanity realised a truth that mutually exclusive groups "men" and "women" exist even though the reason to think it, ie the observation of two sexes, is apparently entirely wrong?

And if that's not improbable enough, do they really think it's likely that by some crazy coincidence, society could have been totally wrong about which people are women, yet somehow the women-only provisions like sports, toilets, political movements that were set up based on that misunderstanding are exactly right for the "real" women anyway, so those real women (ie the ones that meet this newly understood, correct identity definition not the old misunderstood body type definition) can just slip right in with nothing else needing to change because of it?

Don't get me wrong, I get that people might strongly want to be the opposite sex, or feel that they relate only to feminine things or masculine things. That doesn't mean they are any other sex than the body they are in.

If you are a male person with a certain type of brain - perhaps you are empathetic or have an eye for colour - then that's you, and that's an example of a male brain.

If you had a brain bit communicating that you were Napoleon, or that other people were demons who wanted to kill you or that you could fly, would you recommend a) treatment or b) directions to Moscow, a church or a tall building respectively?

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

@mattermore you are straying into the 'lady brain' idea here, an idea and belief that has been used against women by men for millenia in order to keep them in their place, out of education, out of professions, etc., etc., please don't, it's incredibly insulting and offensive and has been roundly debunked many times over.

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

What brain bit would that be? There have been decades of research trying to find this brain bit and as far as I'm aware it's still no been discovered.

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

I can only imagine this as essentially "hallucinating" that you have a vagina or womb or something. Maybe like a phantom limb. Is this what you mean?

You're right about the usefulness of @hearach15 to lurkers and newbies but the thing that really impresses me is the superhuman patience of those who reply - for hours sometimes - to all their bullshit. It would bore/annoy me to sobs.

We can never know how another person feels the way that you know yourself. For all they know every single other man feels exactly the same but deal with it differently, give it no thought, or whatever.

But you are your body and a tw, as a man, is likely to have more in common, with any other man than their imagination's best idea of what they think a woman is.

Earache, If you are so sure that it's such a minority view then how do you explain these replies on an entirely different website with most of its users in an entirely different country?

www.datalounge.com/thread/31499389-uk-lesbians-removed-from-pride-event-for-criticizing-gender-ideology

www.datalounge.com/thread/31531943-why-it%E2%80%99s-time-to-take-the-l-out-of-lgbt

www.datalounge.com/thread/29236901-gay-man-attacked-for-supporting-lgb-alliance

Well no, I think if one was born male but with some brain bit communicating that you are female, that would lead you to feel you were female I imagine.

"obviously I just made that up, but I think it is at least theoretically possible there is a biological cause to why some people have sex dysphoria."

But IMO if that was the case, they would just know that they "don't feel like a (typical) man".
It wouldn't necessarily follow that they then "felt like a woman" because they can never know what that is.
I'm not saying I disagree with you and I'm aware that I am derailing the thread slightly so I'll leave it there.

For the last point, ‘how can one feel like a woman’. There may be an explanation for this. Humans learn how to live in human society partly through instinct and partly learnt behavior. Because of the toll childbirth and rearing take out n women, in most societies ( or all) men and women have performed different roles. If you need to know you are male or female to know which adult behavior to copy, you probably do need to understand you are make or female. It may be that humans do have an innate sense of whether they are make or female, or born to develop this. And for some people, this goes wrong and they are born with a sense they are the other sex. This doesn’t mean they are the other sex, just there is a miscommunication.

obviously I just made that up, but I think it is at least theoretically possible there is a biological cause to why some people have sex dysphoria.

It’s about social identity though isn’t it? To change their view would get them kicked out of their group and would lose them their sense of identity as being a member of that group. That’s distressing. No wonder they get so emotionally disregulated when faced with questions they can’t answer.

Questions and logic ARE Kryptonite to them.
There is no answer to the question "What is a woman" apart from the logical science based answer, the same answer it has been since human life evolved.

That's why watching people try to squirm out of, around, under and over these simple questions without ever actually answering them is very satisfying.

Deflect, avoid, give circular definitions, get irate, flounce off.

It's all very predictable.

Why do men's rights trump those of women?
What is a woman?
How does one live "as" a woman?
How can a man "feel" like a woman when he has no point of reference and has never been one?

Questions that are never answered .

This is why I think questions are their kryptonite.

In a previous job I occasionally ran into people who I believe would be described as 'delusional' if they were ever diagnosed by a medical professional. There was one bloke who thought his neighbour had brought xray machinery home from the airport where he worked. The neighbour was using this to torment him at night when he was sleeping. When I, truthfully, told him I'd been through the neighbour's house, there was no machinery there, he told me it was under the wallpaper!

I'm starting to think delusional disorders may also be on a spectrum. People can find it almost physically painful to give them up their 'delusions' or treasured beliefs. The mental gymnastics they perpetrate to retain them are extraordinary to witness, but also sometimes frightening or desperately sad.

I suppose, somewhere on reddit, there's a tra writing the same thing about MN FWR

I actually can't quite remember when it dawned on me that this is all there is. There's no missing piece that makes it all make sense.

Yes, that. I very much remember that moment.

That it doesn't matter how long you listen or search the evidence in the belief that good faith and logic is going to be in there somewhere, it must be - you are never going to find it. It doesn't exist.