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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there any sensible advice on how to parent tomboys in the current climate?

112 replies

Neithhotep · 24/08/2022 09:34

I have a 10-year old daughter. Short hair, plays football, wears her brother's hand-me-downs, don't think she owns a dress.

Over the next few years, as she and her peers get access to social media, she will be inundated with the suggestion that SHE MIGHT BE A BOY. Her peers will suggest it. Her teachers and authority figures will support it. She will get her period and her body will start to change and she will be asked if she's comfortable with the changes, because if not, she might be a boy! What young teen would be strong minded enough to say no?

I feel as though my baby is about to run a gauntlet, and I'm not completely sure how to parent her through it.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 24/08/2022 10:55

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:42

@lifeturnsonadime I agree that gender identity is constant and you discover it rather than change your gender. So in this instance the child would have always been a boy but only realised recently. This is different to biological sex which is your sex assigned at birth this also cannot change. But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

It is always, always good to hear views that present different views.

However, when it comes to children's identities, it is very good for OP to realise that you, mythro, are very much in the minority with your ideological and not science based thinking. And we can read it along side others who have brought up children during this time, and who also have been following very closely to the very unscientific viewpoints vs the studies and the clinician articles and papers, and decide what level of credibility your posts have when you post what you have here.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 24/08/2022 10:54

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:16

It's very unlikely that your child would be told that they're a boy, trans issues are barely talked about in school now. If your child does turn out to be a boy you'd probably want to support them. Also the changes your body goes through with puberty would make trans people uncomfortable with the gender assigned to it as well as the changes, cis people can also be uncomfortable during puberty.

It's very unlikely that your child would be told that they're a boy, trans issues are barely talked about in school now.

///

Depends where you are is our experience yet here you are strongly suggesting that any of these feelings which most teens experience may mean "she's a boy ".

In DDs close friendship group of 5, 3 claim to be non binary/possibly the opposite sex. DD needs to check in weekly which pronouns are right this week.

There is absolutely a degree of social contagion going on.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/08/2022 10:53

Kanaloa · 24/08/2022 10:48

Oh another thing I think helps is seeing others in real life who are like you - one of the teachers at my sons dojo is a lady, and my dd loves her. Unfortunately she only teaches the older students! But I think it’s good for my dd to see that ‘look, other girls and women like doing this - I’m not an odd one out amongst the boys, I’m just like x.’

I agree with this.

When my daughter was in primary school she was with a group of really girly girls. Think into make up, boys and facials by 8-9 years old.

After I withdrew her from school due to unmet needs (nothing to do with the subject in the OP) she started to share with me that she felt she didn't fit in with anything that girls did, she didn't think there were other girls who were like her. I emphasised that there were but she just hadn't found them yet.

She carried on playing her sport, with boys, in a boys team and eventually got good enough to trial and be selected for the girls county age group. Hey presto she's found her peer group of girls! This has been absolutely life changing for her.

Musomama1 · 24/08/2022 10:53

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:42

@lifeturnsonadime I agree that gender identity is constant and you discover it rather than change your gender. So in this instance the child would have always been a boy but only realised recently. This is different to biological sex which is your sex assigned at birth this also cannot change. But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

But your ideology calls biological women womb carriers or period havers, Gwyneth Paltrow calls men penis Havers on her Goop website. Doesn't that reduce people to their body parts?

People are programmed to recognise others sex, not their identity. Gender identity is entirely subjective, unstable and often unclear, hence the need for announcing pronouns to others etc.

Also sex is observed in the womb, have you had children? How can sex be assigned unless it's for a DSD baby?

Isaidnoalready · 24/08/2022 10:52

My son has long hair and a affinity for pink he is a boy he corrects people when they call him a girl gets aggrieved when people question him he is 9 years old with sen im not too concerned because he advocates for himself thankfully but its the audacity that people have trying to tell him what he is and insist that is what he is when he himself states no

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 24/08/2022 10:50

there is no wrong way to be a girl.

///

I ❤️ this

BridasShieldWall · 24/08/2022 10:49

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:42

@lifeturnsonadime I agree that gender identity is constant and you discover it rather than change your gender. So in this instance the child would have always been a boy but only realised recently. This is different to biological sex which is your sex assigned at birth this also cannot change. But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

It isn’t accepted that we refer to people based on their gender
identity. Referring to biological sex does not reduce someone to their genitals. Gender ideology is just that, an ideology and not one that I subscribe to. What I do find dehumanising is reducing women and girls to ‘menstruators’ or ‘vagina havers’ which so often happens when people do not use commonly understood biological terms like girl / boy or man / woman.

Kanaloa · 24/08/2022 10:48

Oh another thing I think helps is seeing others in real life who are like you - one of the teachers at my sons dojo is a lady, and my dd loves her. Unfortunately she only teaches the older students! But I think it’s good for my dd to see that ‘look, other girls and women like doing this - I’m not an odd one out amongst the boys, I’m just like x.’

Beamur · 24/08/2022 10:47

You have to keep talking to her and anticipating the kinds of thinking she'll be coming up against and give her the tools to make good, informed choices.
Don't allow unfettered internet access and keep an eye on what she's looking at. Be interested in her interests and keep alongside her without crowding/controlling.
Make sure she has other interests in the real world, activities that use the body and help her grow into it as she changes
Talk about those changes in a way that she's comfortable with. Periods and physical changes aren't easy for most people and discomfort and disconnection are not unusual or pathological.

RoseslnTheHospital · 24/08/2022 10:46

Returning to the question of advice, I very much agree with the sensible suggestions made by previous posters about limiting social media, keeping her engaged in positive physicality, positive role models of women of different shapes/sizes/looks doing a wide range of activities. Plus discussion about the simple facts of biology, and the way that societies like to impose roles/behaviours on women because of their sex.

Kanaloa · 24/08/2022 10:46

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:42

@lifeturnsonadime I agree that gender identity is constant and you discover it rather than change your gender. So in this instance the child would have always been a boy but only realised recently. This is different to biological sex which is your sex assigned at birth this also cannot change. But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

What are you talking about? Your sex can’t change but you can ‘realise’ you’ve always been a boy, because otherwise you’re reduced to your genitals? What on earth do you think makes you a boy or a girl?

spiderontheceiling · 24/08/2022 10:45

It may well be a non-issue.
My DD is similar and has just finished yr7 at a co-ed state school. Amongst her peer group is a girl who identifies as non-binary, a girl who identifies as a boy and one who has switched twice already this year.
DD continues to play football, continues to have male friends, continues to not even consider wearing a dress (family wedding recently made the question come up) but she has recently started wearing mascara and had her ears pierced, as have most of those in her year. Her clothing has changed from leggings and a plain hoodie to what seems to be the ubiquitous young teen girl look of jeans/demin shorts and a crop top.
She's learned at school that there are a ridiculous number of genders (over a dozen) but she has never questioned her own gender and nor has anyone else.
We've had plenty of chats over the past few years about biology v gender identity, how behaviour doesn't determine anything, don't live in a particularly stereotypical household (DH cooks; I do the DIY) and have always tried to challenge stereotypes. DS is 2 years younger than DD so wanted to do whatever she did as a toddler including wearing princess dresses & all of that sort of thing. I think DD is more embarrassed that she used to have a pink t shirt with a sparkly mermaid on than DS is about the fact he had an identical one!
I was also conscious that I didn't want to do or say anything that would suggest to DD that I had any concerns about her gender due to the way she behaved.

Kanaloa · 24/08/2022 10:45

My younger daughter is a tomboy. I never was and her older sister isn’t! She’s very sporty/energetic and happiest in dirty clothes bashing round the park on her bike.

One thing we do is never comment on it - obviously we might say something like Amy loves karate or Amy wants to be a footballer when she’s older but we’d never say ‘Amy is a tomboy because she likes these activities that are more commonly associated with boys.’ She’s just ‘Amy’ before she’s a tomboy or anything else. We see it as her personality.

I try to make sure we read a lot of different stories and watch different characters on TV, so she has girls and women she can identify herself as being similar to, rather than the confusion of thinking ‘hang on, how come everyone who does/wears x is a boy and I like to do that but I’m a girl?’ Also I don’t really encourage iPads/tablets/computer time freely, I try to push them more towards clubs/playing with friends/activities with me or dad. Even for adults the minefield that is the Internet can be difficult to manage. For a child it’s an accident waiting to happen.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/08/2022 10:44

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:42

@lifeturnsonadime I agree that gender identity is constant and you discover it rather than change your gender. So in this instance the child would have always been a boy but only realised recently. This is different to biological sex which is your sex assigned at birth this also cannot change. But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

Respectfully I completely disagree with every word you have typed.

People can present as they wish and do what they wish.

The ideology you promote encourages young girls who don't conform to gender stereotypes to mutilate their bodies in order to 'be' something they can never be.

mythro · 24/08/2022 10:42

@lifeturnsonadime I agree that gender identity is constant and you discover it rather than change your gender. So in this instance the child would have always been a boy but only realised recently. This is different to biological sex which is your sex assigned at birth this also cannot change. But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

Ramblingnamechanger · 24/08/2022 10:42

A girl will never be a boy .

bettbburg · 24/08/2022 10:41

Helleofabore · 24/08/2022 10:37

I was a Tomboy too

yep. Lots of us around.

Me too, and I was happy to be.

RoseslnTheHospital · 24/08/2022 10:40

It's not to do with gender ideology, the term tomboy was sexist in the 80s when it was applied to me and I rejected it then as I do now. It's the flip side of calling boys that aren't sufficiently masculine "sissies". They're just children with diverse interests. No need for a label, which only serves to enforce the idea that some activities/interests/behaviours are for boys and some for girls.

Helleofabore · 24/08/2022 10:37

I was a Tomboy too

yep. Lots of us around.

PragmaticWench · 24/08/2022 10:37

Helleofabore · 24/08/2022 10:33

I too, am concerned about this ‘Tomboy being a boy’ shite. Who the fuck thought that one up?

Indeed, it's fucking rude to women being themselves! There is nothing wrong with women presenting however they damn well like.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/08/2022 10:37

RoseslnTheHospital · 24/08/2022 10:36

Maybe you could avoid using the term "tomboy" and discuss with her the inherent sexism in that term, which describes a girl with not sufficiently feminine behaviour (as deemed by a sexist misogynist society) as being "boy-like".

It's a shame that we have to change language because of gender ideology.

I have never perceived Tom Boy as sexist.

omnishambles · 24/08/2022 10:36

I restricted social media a lot and then went hard on accepting bodies, showcasing lesbian role models and different sorts of women etc etc. We have come through the other side.

Helleofabore · 24/08/2022 10:36

definitely off tiktok!!!

RoseslnTheHospital · 24/08/2022 10:36

Maybe you could avoid using the term "tomboy" and discuss with her the inherent sexism in that term, which describes a girl with not sufficiently feminine behaviour (as deemed by a sexist misogynist society) as being "boy-like".

lifeturnsonadime · 24/08/2022 10:35

Helleofabore · 24/08/2022 10:33

I too, am concerned about this ‘Tomboy being a boy’ shite. Who the fuck thought that one up?

I think the fact that Tomboy has the word boy in it has led to this.

I was a Tomboy too, as is my daughter. Gender stereotypes are crap.

Really really awful that girls who don't conform with tick tock notions of 'girl' are being told they are not girls with potentially horrific consequences.