Another uncritical gender identity article in the journal Science

I think this thread will be interesting for lurkers.

Words have concrete meanings AND they are made up labels.

What is the "concrete meaning" of "non binary" gender, as opposed to the made up label, please.

I will sit down, just like I will say non binary isn't a meaningful designation and no one has a "gender". Interesting that you think there might be "consequences".

Words have concrete meanings AND they are made up labels.

You missing my point. The question is whether the label has a meaning that can be applied objectively, or is self-applied.

Are "non-binary" or "male" objective labels we can apply, or do they have to be self-applied as "identity"?

You seem to take the position that "non-binary" has to be self-applied, and are saying we're not non-binary on that basis. You can't just figure out what the definition of non-binary is and say that we are.

Depends upon the consequences really. I’ll leave that for you to judge in the event such a thing happens to you.

It’s an example of extremist views being applied in society. Obviously gender theory isn’t the only game in town with extremist views that get implemented in society causing harm. This is not a new phenomenon and it’s far less harmful than most times extremism has been implemented in society.

Even if you think gender identity is similar to a religious belief in spirit animals or crystal healing, it’s best to respect the other persons beliefs insofar as they wish to be treated.

So by the same token, if someone says "don't sit down, my spirit lion doesn't like it", I need to keep standing, even if I really need a seat?

@NecessaryScene
Words have concrete meanings when it suits, and are self-applied labels when it suits.

Thats a wilful mischaracterisation of what I said. Words have concrete meanings AND they are made up labels. Take for example, “money” or “black hole” or “paracetamol” all are a made up labels with a concrete meanings for a reality.

It’s not just my motivation, it’s the tone of the thread, because we’re generally feminists. No one is saying, “silly girl, of course she’s not Non-binary, she should stop worrying her little head about physics and get back in the kitchen”.

but you said we’re criticising her for breaking gender stereotypes- why did you say that when there’s no evidence for that at all? It seems to me like it’s still more of this effort to suggest that anyone who doesn’t get “gender identity” is bound by gender stereotypes, so that trans and NB people can claim to be the only ones who are special enough to step outside them.

I find that article not just silly and self-contradictory (if you can’t even interrogate a relatively recent, illogical, evidence-free ideology, you definitely are not questioning everything) - but bloody rude and insulting to the many great scientists who really have questioned everything and managed to do so without navel-gazing themselves about their “gender identity” and declaring themselves more open-minded than other people.

So, I’m saying gender theory is mostly good.

In what sense?

Not quite. The extremist bits of gender theory are bad. Just like the extremists bits of feminist theory, critical race theory, neomarxist theory etc are also bad and do cause harm.

Humans tend to take everything to a bad extreme, even the good things. So, I’m saying gender theory is mostly good. It’s the extremist bits that need to be lopped off.

Yes!

Well @Discovereads I doubt Blossom has any clue what you were trying to say, because I certainly don't, so maybe it's for you to explain the relevance of female sex based oppression to people who believe in "non binary" gender identity. Aside from pointing out what a luxury belief it is.

Unless you can define what things the two binary "genders" consist of, of course.

Unlikely. There's a continuous motte-and-bailey going on here between

"I’ve simply been defining terms."

and

"Whether or not you are also NB is for you to decide. Of course it’s a made-up label most words are made up labels. Doesn’t make it any less real."

Words have concrete meanings when it suits, and are self-applied labels when it suits. Can flip several times in a page of the thread.

And sometimes you can pretend they're both simultaneously - eg this assumption that male people (identified by concrete sex definition) have male gender identity (they have self-labelled).

Ask @BlossomsOnATree she brought it up,

Alright, no I didn’t know your particular motivation for making fun of this person for being NB. Posters still did it. And it’s not necessary.

So your response re extremism suggest you don’t think gender ideology taking over western society, and people being harmed by it, is a good thing. Is that right?

These are examples of oppression of women due to their sex. Do you think these women and girls declaring that they weren't "binary" would save them?

How is it cop-out if it’s being implemented by society? That’s just life. Many extremist views have been implemented in society many times over- often resulting in atrocities. One only needs to look at the Taliban in Afghanistan to see an example of even worse extremism than we have here. Would you like all our female judges to be hunted down and shot in the head execution style? Would you like 9yr old girls being married off to 50yr old men? and so on.

I could list over a dozen historical examples of extremism being implemented in societies and the death and chaos caused, but I think you get my point and can think of at least a few cases.

What is the relevance of any of this to whether we believe in "genders", either "binary" or "non binary"?

How is it cop-out if it’s being implemented by society? That’s just life. Many extremist views have been implemented in society many times over- often resulting in atrocities. One only needs to look at the Taliban in Afghanistan to see an example of even worse extremism than we have here. Would you like all our female judges to be hunted down and shot in the head execution style? Would you like 9yr old girls being married off to 50yr old men? and so on.

I could list over a dozen historical examples of extremism being implemented in societies and the death and chaos caused, but I think you get my point and can think of at least a few cases.

By the way, the NB people who don’t have a gender are called agender.

Yes, as you say, that sub-label is under the "non binary" umbrella. I don't believe anyone has a "gender" in the way people mean, so everyone is non binary. I am not interested in convincing people of anything. Unless you can define what things the two binary "genders" consist of, of course.

Coming down on and making fun of NB people for breaking down gender stereotypes

no one did that. Yes we made fun of this person, not because they resist gender stereotypes, that’s a good thing. But because they think they’re special for doing it, and because they claim that being “NB” gives them a special, extra open-mindednesses and ability to question everything - as if other people can’t do that - while at the same time not stopping for one moment to question gender ideology, suggesting they don’t “question everything” at all.

read the thread. Where is anyone criticising or mocking them for breaking with gender stereotypes?

ok, so when you said
But we are non binary, because we don't have a "gender". you were referring to “everyone who has ever lived”

I think many would disagree with you on everyone being the same gender identity. Millions of people do not identify as NB. So you’d have to do a bit of evangelism to convince them otherwise.

By the way, the NB people who don’t have a gender are called agender.

Theres extremists in everything, gender theory is no exception with extremists both for and against it. All extremism is bad, it’s the middle road that matters.

no, that’s a massive cop-out. What you call an extremist view is in fact being adopted wholesale by the NHS, the police, many governments, many workplaces, whole sections of life and everyday experience. As I said, people are losing their jobs. Women are self-excluding from gyms, swimming, shops etc because they can no longer relax in the knowledge they’ll get a female-only experience. Girls toilets are being invaded by boys at school, resulting in girls not using them at all and not drinking so they don’t have to. Women are being raped in prison and on female hospital wards. Children are having their health destroyed.

all this is because “gender identity” is being taken seriously and is being seen as a replacement for actual sex, and more important than actual sex.

Yes there was a gender binary. The fact that the binary was different in different times and places, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a binary there and then. It most certainly was and it was socially enforced.

As I said, I’ve been breaking gender norms my whole life. ok, so you are gender nonconforming.

So am I “NB”? Because if I’m not, but in real life am actually just as non-binary as an “NB”-identified person, then how is it a thing? It’s clearly just a made-up label.. Whether or not you are also NB is for you to decide. Of course it’s a made-up label most words are made up labels. Doesn’t make it any less real.

What’s then not OK is for others to be forced to accept those identities in place of actual sex, and that’s what’s happening. Most things go to an extreme before they are reined in. Doesnt make all of it crap to be fought against or disrespected. In other words, choose your battles. Coming down on and making fun of NB people for breaking down gender stereotypes isn’t part of that issue at all. It’s just acting on guilt by association.