Jerry Sadowitz

I had a boss who went to the Fringe back in the 80s and he swore he went to see an Icelandic performer who shat in a telephone box. I saw Malcolm Hardee who died years back getting his rather large knob out at Greenwich Up the Creek Club in the 90s and Ken Cambell at a one-man show brought on a naked woman who turned her arse to the audience and sprayed the audience with milk. I reckon I'm pretty unshockable but watching a comic like RCB if I had to amongst baying similars would probably have me walking out.

Quote from another site...

Sadowitz's act is also underpinned by a (probably heartfelt) self-loathing - he doesn't punch down, but instead punches upwards while repeatedly hitting himself on the head with a frying pan.
On the (rare) occasions he cracks wise about immigrants, he usually pops in a reminder that he's one himself.
If he's cruel to Asians and gays, he's usually far, far crueller to Scots and Jews.

God I wish there was an edit button on here! I'm not saying someone who also gets casual shifts at the EICC won't pick up shifts for the Pleasance, but it is Pleasance who will be staffing the venue.

Just forty years of going to the Fringe

Yes, I would compare this to the youngsters in publishing houses saying they will quit if there are books published they find problematic.

The argument is the same, why should they have to work on a book that says things they find offensive, or God forbid, makes arguments they disagree with? Or even work for a company that is "allied" to such views?

The answer of course is that is what publishing is.

these people were being paid, right?

there does seem to be a thing at the moment of expecting to be able to make your employers comply with your views. it's really quite strange

it's a Pleasance venue for the duration of the Festival, it's Pleasance staff working there.

Have you got a source for that? I've worked at London Olympia and Earls Court in the past and it was mainly permanent staff doing the bulk/all of the work with 'greeters' handing out lanyards and goodie bags/programmes etc occasionally brought in.

I guess my playground nursery rhyme has been cancelled then.😁

Sticks and stones may break my bones
But words shall never hurt me.

I'm on two different threads about this so apologies if my post from yesterday where I suggested a perfectly reasonable approach to show number 2 - extra content warnings, specific content warnings in the queue, offer of refunds, etc.

I'd add to this Anderson and the rest of the salaried staff and board could quite simply have pulled on a t-shirt and ushered the show if the issue was really hurty staff feelings.

Away @Stiches it's a Pleasance venue for the duration of the Festival, it's Pleasance staff working there. People book 'Pleasance' shows and reasonably often go to the wrong place, ie 'The' Pleasance instead of their other venues. Total misdirect to try and claim this is some sort of financial conference usher issue.

meh. I've just come from the fringe. of all the shows I saw, most of them contained something to offend. 3 male comedians referred to specific women as 'bitches', a word i really dislike. Another said that he had been accused of punching 'like a girl', another said that they don't understand why people like ricky gervais think they are saying the unsayable when they are paid a lot of money to say it (yeah, thats working out great for graham linehan and JK rowling). There were elements in each show to piss me off just like with any comedy show ever. But I sat through the shows and laughed at the funny bits. If you strip away anything that could ever offend, comedy could not exist anyore. The audience should not be in agreement at all times - that's not funny and I could get that in a work meeting. I don't go to a show to hear my own opinions chanted at me, I go to have them challenged. We're not doing a favour to young people (like the festival staff) by letting them think they have the right never to be offended.

I have an abiding principle that I refuse to believe there are magic words.

I guess I will end up being stoned to death for enjoying a fish supper one day. I hope it's quick.

(A book is neither moral nor immoral. It is merely well written or badly written that is all.)
.

They treat taboo words as if they are bad magic, context is irrelevant.

Yes, bang on.

Don't ask how but here are 15 minutes of unedited JS from years ago if anyone wants to know what he is on about.

WARNING - obviously very offensive don't listen if you are easily offended.

I just can't picture that as an adult you could volunteer for something like this, without any caveats (I will only work on things designated as ok for families, say) and not expect that you could see something you won't like. Be it language, scatological humour, nudity, menstrual blood, shit, or people sharing their idiotic thoughts about life.

My observation has been that a lot of the younger generation who accept this stuff are extremely literal and also superstitious. They treat taboo words as if they are bad magic, context is irrelevant. You get canceled for using a racial slur against someone, also for saying the word talking about the incident, or writing an article about it, etc. They do not understand irony. They do not see layers of meaning. They do not understand the idea of people acting in character. In stories the bad people need to be clearly identified as bad and punished, etc. They are completely unaware that it is possible to frame issues in different ways. They cannot see anything from another persons point of view.

It's bloody scary.

You tend to assume everyone thinks and feels like you do.

If a show says 18+ it could contain all kinds of things, potentially. You don't like seeing a penis but don't mind a performer talking about her rape, I don't care about seeing a penis - enough so that I don't find them funny either, but I really don't want to hear about a performer's personal trauma - I find it pretty invasive.

If I go to a show with adult content, I might see either so if I want to avoid it I probably shouldn't just appear at a show without looking into it.

A nudity waning is fine, as I suppose would be a personal trauma warning, but in the end those things are easy enough to add if the audience is really feeling that they are not seeing what they expect, and the performances could continue. It doesn't explain at all what has happened in this instance. There is something else going on here.

And the responsibility for ensuring the staff's wellbeing is not Jerry Sadowitz's - as the Pleasance implies - it's theirs.

A fact I noted yesterday - and the implications of the Pleasance (now) tying to reverse ferret and say they had no idea what the act would involve. Quite a nice public admission of a abrogation of duty of care that a court can factor into their damages award. Certainly suggests the big brains weren't in the room for that decision. Not that I thought they were anyway.

Sadly, what with actions speaking louder than words and all that, the lack of any action by the Pleasance against JS to recoup their losses says it all.

Stiches - that may be the case. Neverthless, if you have accepted a job at a venue during the Edinburgh Fringe, I refuse to believe you don't know you're going to get a random mix of events on.

And the responsibility for ensuring the staff's wellbeing is not Jerry Sadowitz's - as the Pleasance implies - it's theirs. If they know they have a famously outrageous comedian coming up at the venue they manage, it is their responsibility to make sure their staff are suitably prepared and aware of what's coming (or arrange flexibility of shifts if staff really can't cope).

If the Pleasance - who have been quite happy to make money off hosting Sadowitz for countless years - are going to make a commitment not just to host Sadowitz (who I'm 100% sure could find an alternative venue if the Pleasance refused) but also to the audience members who will have bought the tickets in advance, then they have a duty to do any due diligence before the show, not to cancel it mid-run with just hours to go before the second show.

The victims in this who have been entirely forgotten are the audience members for night 2, who had hardly any notice that the show was being cancelled. I saw at least one post on Twitter from someone who'd posted about having flown in from (I think) Belgium, and was looking forward to the event, leading to comments on Twitter along the lines of 'Shall I tell him or will you?' Even if you get a refund, if you've booked hotel, travel etc, then you're still going to be out of pocket.

The other main victim in this is perspective. I will post below on this. But I for one don't want to move to a world where a rude comedian is banned for being non-specifically 'misogynistic, racist, homophobic'. When Frankie Boyle, as we all know, makes unbelievably misogynistic, offensive comments about raping a named woman, he gets to keep his BBC slots and his Guardian columns, and is even labelled as 'progressive'.😡If Safowitz genuinely said anything even a fraction as dangerous and offensive as that, which was widely quoted, I want to see the exact quote of what Sadowitz said that was so much worse, that his show needed immediate cancellation, not even a trigger warning, change of a particular word, etc.

Otherwise, sorry, I am not going to take the word of what appears to be a bunch of students. I am not a free-speech absolutist (unlike say some US right-wingers) - I do believe that where there are actual threats of violence then yes, there is no right to free speech. And the law is quite clear on this. But I don't think that decisions on Sadowitz's 'guilt' and 'punishment' should be taken behind closed doors by some random offended students. Any more than I think that JK Rowling should be found 'guilty' by random people on the internet and 'punished' for it by those who dislike her pro-women stance. This affects everyone, whatever views you hold. If some self-selected moral 'elite' can rule on one person's guilt without needing to give any objective rationale, then they can do it to anyone.

And that's not progressive. And it's not democratic. It's authoritarian. It's regressive. And it potentially provides cover for the very opposite of what it claims.

RCB was discussed a lot in AIBU and chat at the time.

I think a lot of people had opinions on the matter that could be summarised as follows: "I don't want him banned, and I won't sign a petition to ban his shows. Definitely not going to his show myself, though".

I read that Guardian article, so wishy-washy.

Quality post, xxyzz. Especially the bit about people claiming to feel unsafe.

The Guardian's comedy critic has waded in rather pathetically and predictably:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/16/jerry-sadowitz-cancelled-show-comedy-free-speech

@xxyzz very well and passionately said. 👏👏👏👏

Well, from the most recent comments, including (finally!) a named, verified audience member, it seems clear that the audience were not the ones complaining, but the staff.

I don't have huge amounts of sympathy with people choosing to work at a very famous comedy venue (I imagine a dream job for comedy fans) - but only if they can censor what comedy shows they work on. That's not how it works. I once worked at a very famous music venue. On a good day, I got to see Bob Dylan for free. On a bad day, I was forced to listen to whichever shite but popular band was on. I didn't get to cancel the band and piss off all the fans just because I hated the music (and yes, plenty of music has lyrics that are extremely misogynistic, homophobic, racist etc).

I also have ABSOLUTELY NO PATIENCE with people who use the word 'unsafe' when they mean 'upset' - THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Staff were not 'unsafe' because a comedian used offensive language, they were hurt, or shocked, or scandalised. But 'unsafe'? No. They were in a nice indoor venue with other staff around. And doors they could walk out of if it all got too much.

Let's leave 'unsafe' for all those many cases where people are actually physically attacked or threatened with attack. Like JK Rowling, for example, who was getting (yet another) a death threat the same weekend this was all happening. Which Twitter was refusing to even take down let alone ban the poster.

To all those wondering why this is on the feminist board, why a bunch of feminists care about the cancellation of a comedian most of us have never seen, this is why. We are absolutely sick to the back teeth of no action being taken when women are sent death and rape threats, doxxed and attacked, again and again and again. But the same people who given't give a toss about that are up in arms because a famously rude comedian with a history of being rude, who advertises not to attend his shows if you don't like rudeness or are easily shocked, was rude (exactly as advertised) in his show.

Arguably, given Sadowitz's publicity material, I think the audience would have had grounds for complaining if Sadowitz hadn't been rude, and hadn't got his dick out. Because it's completely clear that anyone attending his shows not only knows that, but that's why they go. No-one attends his shows because they fancy a bit of light whimsy a la Eddie Izzard. They go because they want to be challenged, shocked, and outraged (in a good way).

And if the staff in the venue can't hack working at all the slots on the bill, they're in the wrong job.