Jerry Sadowitz

I wouldn't want the job any way. The fact that I've just had to spell out basic facts about not making blanket assumptions about people based on skin colour or ethnicity is evidence that I wouldn't have the patience to deal with the scale of such ignorance as a full-time job.

Yes I'm fucking serious. There's a big difference between being surrounded by an aggressive group of skinheads in a street and called pki and watching an offensive comedy show where presumably all kinds of people and topics are being insulted / mocked (and this hypothetical brown person seems totally ok with all of that - maybe even laughed at some of the lines), and then someone else who isn't even present is called a pki as part of a joke (it's not even clear what the context of the joke was - something about Tories using the word?!).

Now it might be jarring and offensive to hear it, but it's insulting and infantilising to think that any and all South Asians are inherently incapable of distinguishing between the two scenarios.

South Asians are not a hive mind and stop behaving as if they are. One person might get so upset upon hearing the word irrespective of the context, another might get annoyed but shrug it off, and another might laugh at the joke because they get the underlying message or simply found it funny.

Stop assuming that there is only one kind of reaction a brown person is capable of having when confronted with slurs and unpleasant situations.

A guy passed me in the street once and muttered something about me being a fucking p*ki. It happened so quickly I didn't have time to even register the whole sentence. I didn't faint or feel 'unsafe'. I briefly felt angry and irritated - also surprised, like wow did he really just say that out loud?!.... and then I pitied the guy for his ignorance and racism. I also wondered what happened in his life to shape such views and behaviour. Soon after that I moved on with my day and my life. The incident is a footnote among my memories. Because ultimately the word is not a reflection of me, it's a reflection of the person who uses it on me.
In another situation and context, I might have felt differently, who knows. Who cares. The point is stop assuming all brown people get terribly upset upon hearing a racial slur and are incapable of distinguishing the context within which it's said.

Is it not reasonable that a Pakistani employee who works at a conference centre shouldn't have to, nor be expected to hear JS calling Rishi Sunak a p%%i live on stage?

That's not really the point. If he did that then he deserves to have his gig cancelled.

The vast majority of people who have seen his act seem to think he is being ironic and holding a mirror to to the dark parts of society. Up until now no-one has thought he was serious and intended to be racist.

If that's what he was doing then anyone, Pakistani or otherwise, might like or dislike his humour but it's not the same thing as Roy Chubby Brown.

If the pleasance genuinely thought he was a racist I would have expected them to be much more specific in their reasoning.

No, I don't think you can assume any of those things are true. There are members of minority groups that don't mind hearing jokes with those kinds of words, there are people who have been sexually assaulted that will laugh at jokes relating to sexual assault, there are religious people who are happy to laugh at jokes about religion, etc.

Especially, in every case, if the jokes are enlightening, which is not incompatible with them being shocking.

Anyone speaking on behalf of all these people as if they are of one mind is speaking out of turn.

Remind me not to appoint you as HR manager.

"Unpleasant words", Nonni are you fucking serious?

No one can reasonably expect to go through life without encountering situations that they may find annoying, hurtful or upsetting.

Brown people should not be encouraged by white people to adopt mental fragility as an identity.

The pervasiveness of the idea that people with more melanin in their skin are somehow inherently less robust when faced with unpleasant words entrenches an association of inferiority when compared to white people.

Racial slurs can shock, anger and upset but at the end of the day we mustn't let a stranger's words (and in the context of an offensive comedy show no less) have so much power and influence on our minds.

It goes even deeper than that. There's been a lot of pressure put on the 'big 4' to raise their wages - and they have, to be fair - but not in any way that compensates for how expensive accommodation is in Edinburgh over August. I saw a job for a content creator for one of the big names which was something like 60 hours per week for £600 - you're not going to be able to find accommodation for that.

So even people who are getting jobs on their own merit are doing it from a background of financial privilege. Very few people can afford to work at the Fringe.

Also it's a purely hypothetical employee.

Is there actually any evidence whatsoever that an actual as opposed to theoretical employee of Pakistani origin worked at the venue or objected to anything that was actually said? Or are you getting outraged on behalf of something that was quite possibly not said, in a context that is not known, and on behalf of a person who almost certainly doesn't exist, or we would have heard from them before now?

No outrage, I'm just looking at it in an employer/employee legal sense.

I also have ABSOLUTELY NO PATIENCE with people who use the word 'unsafe' when they mean 'upset' - THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Staff were not 'unsafe' because a comedian used offensive language, they were hurt, or shocked, or scandalised. But 'unsafe'? No. They were in a nice indoor venue with other staff around. And doors they could walk out of if it all got too much.

Absolutely right.

Years ago now I saw a comedian as part of a comedy evening, dead now, who billed himself as “unapologetically offensive” and I suspect rather saw himself as being a Sadowitz type (though without the wit).

He told a rape joke as part of his act and I didn’t laugh. He noticed me not laughing (I was not front row) and decided to make a big deal about it, ending up with him encouraging the audience to wait for me after the show and beat me up.

I didn’t feel “unsafe”, I didn’t even leave.

What I did do is walk up to him in the bar afterwards and politely asked him if he’d considered that he might, that evening, have joked about a rape victim being beaten up for not laughing at a rape joke, and if he felt that this was OK. He blustered a bit about satire, and I asked him if he thought every single audience member who was laughing at it was because they understood it was satire, or could it be that in fact he was encouraging something much nastier.

Anyway so much for unapologetic because he was very apologetic by the time I’d finished with him.

(As an aside, Rhod Gilbert was also on the bill in one of his earliest ever gigs after going full time into comedy, and he was in the bar and overheard me confronting this comedian, and made the point of coming over to me afterwards and saying he thought I was absolutely right to challenge it, have always liked him ever since)

Stewart Lee used to do a routine about “the values of the Carphone Warehouse” in which he mocked the vacuous virtue signalling of corporations. I suspect he doesn’t perform that any more.

That BBC story needs a proofread. It seems to be about both Jerry and Gerry Sadowitz.

Is there actually any evidence whatsoever that an actual as opposed to theoretical employee of Pakistani origin worked at the venue or objected to anything that was actually said? Or are you getting outraged on behalf of something that was quite possibly not said, in a context that is not known, and on behalf of a person who almost certainly doesn't exist, or we would have heard from them before now?

Given that the Pleasance never actually quoted the use of the word P*, which you think they would have done, if that actually was the cause of the cancellation (would have been straightforward enough to explain to Sadowitz, and to the media), I can only assume that this term wasn't actually used at all.

What Sadowitz actually did say remains unknown. And unless the Pleasance admit it, which currently seems unlikely, will remain unknown.

It all feels rather Kafkaesque. Or should that be Stalinist? Accused of a crime that is not described, with no evidence given, and found guilty by a secret court of...students working a holiday job.

Hmm.

As a Fringe attendee of over 30 years I can confirm that what you've said is correct. A few venues will exercise some quality control- The Traverse for example and Summerhall possibly as their shows tend to be arty , not shock-jock type.

I'd never in a million years go to see Sadowitz. The fact he was going to expose his penis should have had a clear warning and it was up to Sadowitz to provide that information.

Never to hear it spoken again*

Fucks sake.

Id be happy NEVER to have the P word never spoken again. And I’d guess a rape victim wouldn’t want to hear a rape “joke” on stage or CSA victim wouldn’t want to hear a CSA punchline or Michael Jackson song. I’d guess religious people are fed up of being mocked for their religious beliefs and I know gay people who are horrified that countries can ban the new Buzz Lightyear film because of a short chaste gay kiss.

I’d want the context of this comment, I’d want the views of a number of attendees, I’d want to know the complaints procedure and if it was followed, I’d want to know if the artist or promoter was spoken with about removing it, I’d want to know if that employee could be moved to a different section for the night etc.

I know I’m walking the “mumsnet is racist line” but if freedom of speech was that easy we’d have fixed it by now. It’s a complex problem.

There are churches in Edinburgh that are used as festival venues - I assume it brings much needed funds. That doesn't mean they approve of everything in all the shows or that the minister checks your ticket.

That quote looks like a flippant remark - not a warning that there would be nudity.

I happen to like Reginald D. Hunter, who has made some valid points about his use of certain words. Words which - as he pointed out - are part of his childhood.

I say this, because I've seen him live in a very mixed cultural setting. Sadly this too was years ago, so (as yet) beyond the reach of the wokemasters.

Generally I am not a fan of retrowashing history (eg. Alan Turings pardon). Whatever the intentions, it allows some elements of society to pretend to younger generations "it wasn't that bad in the 60s/70s/80s. It's the modern equivalent of vandalising classical statues.

Is it not reasonable that a Pakistani employee who works at a conference centre shouldn't have to, nor be expected to hear JS calling Rishi Sunak a p%%i live on stage?

A good point well made, @WalrusSubmarine .

Can you imagine what would happen if everyone who objected to aspects of their job on ethical/moral grounds just put their foot down and refused to do it? The country would grind to a halt immediately!

How many civil servants do you think agree with every aspect of the government's agenda that they're required to deliver? How many teachers love the curriculum and think it's best for their students? What about people who work for all the many industries that harm the environment (power companies), people's health (tobacco companies) or kill people outright (arms companies)?

These people all cope with certain aspects of the job they dislike, no morally and ethically disapprove of, because they get paid, and they need money to live.

There is a bit of me realising, as I write this, with a sudden rush of recognition, that of course it's students doing fabulous summer jobs at the top comedy club at the Edinburgh Fringe who are refusing to work when they don't like the jokes of a particular comedian, just as of course it's Guardian journalists who refuse to work alongside the likes of Suzanne Moore, and of course it's people working in editorial roles at top London publishers who refuse to work on anything written by JK Rowling.

It's because virtually all of them are from highly privileged backgrounds, who have no money worries, an overwheling sense of entitlement, and are extremely well-connected, which is how they get these (frankly much sought-after) jobs in the first place.

But instead of being grateful for their extreme good fortune, they expect absolutely everyone around them to pander to their ludicrous sense of privilege.

And depressingly, too many employers like the Pleasance do. Along with the Guardian and the vast majority of publishers.

I’m not sure it’s that complicated though. If you work for a council or a corporate or a charity or for an individual you will always meet people that you don’t agree with, have funding that has strings attached, have clients that are not 100% ethically aligned to your values, see decisions made that you don’t agree with etc. You do your job and get paid or you leave and don’t get paid and get a difficult reference!

You don’t tend to see a refuse collector refusing to collect the bins from a church because they don’t hold gay weddings. This is a very “luxury beliefs” thing done by those who can afford meticulous moral standards.

And I’d guess these meticulous moral standards are being funded by ma and pa (who have taken the dirty corporate dollar) so these people are enjoying throwing their weight around because they can afford to.

I’m yet to see the actual offence clearly written out - this is all very vague.

I can’t find the story now but recently there was a woke warrior kicking up an enormous fuss about something on ethical grounds and then it was pointed out that they worked for an arms manufacturer!

I don’t think there is any shame in working for an honest pound but I think there is shame in destroying someone else’s career (JS, the venue, the other staff etc) because of something like this.

JS is a magician, I doubt he'd make any jokes as bad as Frankie Boyle's rape joke.

Maybe FWR should organise a trip to see Sadowitz on his tour this year to show support for free speech!