Jerry Sadowitz

There is something about this phrasing thar suggests to me that "content" here refers to something other than Jerry's nudity.

On the other hand, it's a hasty comment to a journalist, and probably shouldn't be treated as if it's been carefully phrased for a courtroom.

@JemimaPuddlegoose I've seen you posting before and some of the stuff you've taken the trouble to put on this thread has been very informative, thank you.

I do not work for the Pleasance in any capacity nor have I ever worked for them.

For full transparency I have worked on two shows that were performed at Pleasance London in the past, however that had no bearing on my opinions or involvement in this thread, other than having certain specific knowledge about stuff like the pleasance artist login. I certainly don't feel any particular loyalty to them because of that.

If anything I've tried to hide and downplay that because to be frank if people found my posts here (many of which are GC) they would probably lobby for my own work to be cancelled by calling me a t**f. If I appear to be "varying" about my level of knowledge, it's because of that - I started out trying to downplay my knowledge then lost my temper and said things in haste.

I know I'll get accused of making this thread all about me but if you search my previous posts you'll see that I've been on MN for a long time and am often very vocal about being biracial and being a CSA survivor, which yes does make me "oversensitive" about issues around consent. I frequently post about both racism, and issues around consent, and the need for informed consent around anything to do with nudity or sex - just do a search, I post about this all the flipping time!

My only "agenda" is that I don't like racism, it worries me how often I see GC views used to push right wing views or stuff like racism (this is something I've posted about a hundred times here) and I find men exposing their dicks to be pretty vile. But I'm also anti-censorship so I grudgingly admit his show has every right to exist, but that it should be performed with adequate content description, since obviously people did attend based on the inadequate Edfringe.com show listing.

@JemimaPuddlegoose is right that the nudity isn't mentioned in the Fringe website.

So what you do is broadcast a content warning before the show starts. You allow a couple of minutes for anyone who finds themself in the wrong show for them to leave. If anyone walks out (and again, people walk out of Fringe shows All The Time) then they are free to complain and ask for a refund.

Tomorrow, you make the content warning even clearer, you tell people in the queue, you give plenty of opportunities to not go ahead and offer refunds. You take that up with the comedian after and maybe decide that you can't afford to put them on again next year.

What you do NOT do is cancel night 2 of a 2 night run. That's fucking madness, a knee jerk reaction that's now got the whole world talking about the Pleasance as anti-free speech and - more pertinently perhaps - a promoter and producer who won't get behind their artists, who will cut and run at the first sign of trouble.

To put that into context, the Pleasance is one of the biggest platforms in Edinburgh. They are forming taste. It's like the thing in the Devil Wears Prada about the colour blue - orgs like the Pleasance have a huge impact on our popular culture and on what can and cannot, should and should not be said.

That's why this is important and imo, that's why the Pleasance is in the wrong.

Nudity should be flagged, I agree.

The issue that bothers me is the Pleasance talking about his 'opinions' being unacceptable, and that being a reason for cancellation. The show was flagged as being offensive and likely to upset people. Are comedians to submit a list of words for approval before taking the stage?

That is what I want explained.

That's why acts should make sure the info they write in the form is accurate.

Yes they should. On that point we agree. And if it's correct that they've failed in this, then I also agree that it needs to be rectified. But I don't see how it's a reason to ban the show.

And it is not like he is an unknown. Just because you didn’t know who he was before this week doesn’t mean he isn’t well known on the comedy circuit.

The Pleasance really fucked up here. If they’d let the second night quietly go ahead and then turned down next year’s booking then there would not be all this attention. Only the ignorant think banning something actually makes it go away.

It is human nature to desperately want to know something you’ve been told is forbidden or secret. It was a stupid move on their part.

I'm 100% convinced that the problem is Pleasance staff, not the audience.

So you're calling the audience members liars? Or accusing the people who have tweeted or spoken to the press of... what, lying about having attended the show?

Edinburgh is not "half nudity and menstrual blood." My former boss used to be in an am-dram company in Barnes which is the poshest, most straitlaced place in the world and they take productions of Ayckbourn plays to Edinburgh Fringe. There are hundreds of shows at Edinburgh that are productions of Hamlet, po-faced one-woman shows about the performer's own life, poetry, circus, dance, mainstream comedy, children's shows, all sorts.

You can easily attend Edinburgh and see shows every day without ever seeing anything 'adult' or 'edgy.'

Plenty of people go to Edinburgh for the first time, plenty of young people go. Every year you have dozens and dozens of uni students or drama students making their first trip. Tourists including foreign tourists who happen to be visiting Edinburgh in August come without even knowing there's a festival on and decide to take in a show just because it's there.

The idea that everyone at Ed Fringe has been going for 30 years and just goes to see edgy comedy is just not true.

People go for all sorts of reasons, with every possible interest, and every possible level of knowledge, and they see every possible show.

That's why acts should make sure the info they write in the form is accurate. It's very very weird to defend not mentioning that your show includes exposed penises!

I don't think that's on - I'm pretty sure Jemima is a regular poster.

@JemimaPuddlegoose

Are you by any chance someone who works for The Pleasance who has come here to anonymously put their side forward?

I’d have a lot more respect for your opinion if you were open and honest.

He had performed at The Pleasance for decades. How could they not know the general content of his show? He has form for getting his dick out on stage.

The Pleasance has been a venue for fucking ever. They KNOW who they are booking when they book JS, and if they don't, they have no business putting on comedy shows at all. Sorry, but this is bullshit, Jemima.

I've lived in Edinburgh for decades, Jemima. (Funny how on every thread you are an expert on the particular topic... ). People do go to all sorts of things at the fringe. But anyone who's into comedy will have heard of JS. And if they haven't, or haven't got the nous to google him, there's a clear warning on the show info. And they are free to leave if they don't like the show.

As for the idea that he's exposed himself to a woman - he exposed himself to everyone. Half the acts at the fringe are naked and smeared in menstrual blood. You'd be disappointed if you went to a show and didn't see a dick. I'm 100% convinced that the problem is Pleasance staff, not the audience.

I agree, however those tweets would definitely be considered transphobic by some.

How do you know he didn’t tell the venue? Venues are responsible for their listings. Surely someone at the venue should have watched one of his previous shows first to find out the general content!

Okay, at the risk of sounding like a know-all, can I please please explain how Ed Fringe model operates in practice? Can you please just read what I have to say before deciding?

Ed Fringe is a massive festival that is "open access" meaning that anyone can perform there if they can afford the fees.

The festival has over 3500 shows this year.

The way Ed fringe works is, people apply to perform and they pay the fee.
Obviously someone does read the applications when they first come in, and some venues are more choosy whereas others are purely spaces for hire that literally anyone can pay the fee and put on anything they like.

The Ed Fringe website automatically sends out an email to everyone who is bringing a show (all 3500 of them) which contains a link to an online form, where each act (all 3500 of them) fills in their show details. The form contains a section "Show description" where the act or their producer or their manager or whomever is handling their EdFringe run writes in the marketing blurb that will become the official show description. Another part of the form is a section marked "content warning" where each act/their person is supposed to write down everything that might need to be trigger warned. Nudity is absolutely something you are supposed to write in the box!

Those 3500 forms get sent to the EdFringe web development team, who copy and paste them into the 'live' website. As you can imagine 3500 show descriptions is a lot! Please understand, no one is actually reading the forms once they've been submitted. The onus is 100% on each act to make sure their show description and content warning is accurate and up to date.

The Pleasance as a venue has no involvement over what's on the Edfringe.com website. At all. I happen to know that the Pleasance gives each act a log-in for pleasance.co.uk so they can edit their own show descriptions on the Pleasance website, but the Pleasance website is separate from the EdFringe.com website, and it's the EdFringe.com website that everyone uses.

A lot of people have complained about this, it's a big ongoing problem. But in this specific situation, JS or whoever on JS' team submitted the form is to blame. Because they should and could have typed a more accurate description into the form, and they certainly should have put "may contain nudity" and "offensive content" into the content warning box, and not just "strong language and themes some may find distressing."

Unless there is some actual evidence that the complaint was about alleged transphobia then I'm not interested in speculating. That isn't the issue for me at all.

I went to an EdFringe show once where two women got DH up on stage (we had only just started going out) and did a whole skit with him where they had an embarrassing first date and she kissed him full on the lips.

Anyone who goes to an EdFringe show should know to expect the unexpected.

Then we went to Cabaret Voltaire and he got hit on and bought drinks by a group of male singers for the whole night. Probably his best run of luck ever 😆

The total secrecy about this makes it so obvious this is about trans. Jerry has been playing at the Fringe for decades, the Pleasance knew very well how offensive his shows are. If they genuinely wanted to protect their staff as an employer they would vet the material of all acts before booking.
If they wanted to protect those staff who complained they could have just offered them a swapped shift.
The use of language (feeling unsafe), the instant cancellation and poor excuses...
Plus he's deleted this Tweet from before the show. You can be offensive to almost anyone at the Fringe, but not the Church of Trans.

Precisely @MaChienEstUnDick

They have been supporting him for years. This is not the first time he has behaved like this. What has changed?

Probably the new hate crime laws in Scotland that lots of people said would have a chilling effect on free speech.

The Pleasance has been showing (and therefore making money from) Jerry Sadowitz since at least the mid-80s

wow. Are they under new management or something? That’s a worrying sign of the times.

I think his penis would come under the banner of “themes some may find distressing”.

Warnings and additional info: This show contains strong language and themes some may find distressing."

It was also called 'Not for anyone'

Come on, that's a clear warning that there is stuff that will offend people. It plainly states that he might do anything.

I can't see the bit where it says he'll expose his penis a few feet away from a woman's face.

The Pleasance has been showing (and therefore making money from) Jerry Sadowitz since at least the mid-80s. Suggestions that they didn't know what they were getting are ridiculous, I'm afraid.

I still wonder how Frankie Boyle has avoided cancellation for so long. I have seen worse from him and people cheer him on.

This is what people find unfair- you only get cancelled if you upset the wrong people. Their is no consistency.

@JemimaPuddlegoose

How do you know he didn’t tell the venue? Venues are responsible for their listings. Surely someone at the venue should have watched one of his previous shows first to find out the general content!

The venue should know that is controversial. It was their duty of care to check and out the proper warnings on the show.

I don’t agree with what he said but I defend his right to say it. Because at the end of the day he makes himself look like a dickhead. By pulling the show The Pleasance have made him into the victim in all this.

the show description and content warnings that JS/his team gave to the Edfringe.com didn't include any mention of nudity or potential nudity, meaning people were not given the information necessary to consent to attend a show featuring nudity

But it does say:
"please note that I might just do card tricks and say nothing for a whole hour or I might just do the usual "screaming fascist" schtick. Or both. Patrons may wish to drink alcohol pre-show to avoid boredom, embarrassment and guilt.'

Warnings and additional info: This show contains strong language and themes some may find distressing."

It was also called 'Not for anyone'

Come on, that's a clear warning that there is stuff that will offend people. It plainly states that he might do anything.