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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’

133 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:14

Interesting piece on the agony uncle pages of the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/dear-richard-madeley-transgender-brother-furious-choice-baby/

The key point is that a pregnant woman who has a transman sibling wants to name her baby after a female ancestor who was important to them as she (ancestor) was a suffragette and a scientist. Transman sibling has stopped to talking to her because the ancestor's name is also the transman's deadname. The writer of the letter and the wider family had supported the transman through transition and had previously had a good relationship.

Richard's reply is that she should name the baby what she likes and to "tell your brother to grow up. There’s already one baby on the way.
"You say he had full family support during his trans journey. Well, support flows both ways. Tell him how important it is to you to honour your ancestor. And why shouldn’t you? Is this valued family figure – part of ALL your collective pasts – destined to become a sort of non-person simply because of your brother?
As for him refusing to speak to you over this… well, really. He’s being over-dramatic and, frankly, ridiculous. In fact, if the naming of his little niece is the biggest thing in his life he has to worry about, he’s an extremely lucky man."

Which I thought was very good advice.

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of a deadname.

If dead then surely can be re-used? If there is still an issue then it is not dead at all. Say the deadname was Sally and the transman is now Fred then it suggests philosophically there is still a Sally-iness about Fred, if it really was a dead name there would not be. And that is why Fred is uncomfortable. If there never was any Sally to Fred and just Fred waiting to come out then surely the Sally name should be available to use within the family for others??

I wonder if a situation with the married surname of a woman who divorces and wants to never hear her ex-name again is structurally similar?

Mrs Smith goes back to being Miss Jones. Changes her documents and never, ever, ever uses the name again. Miss Jones would still have to use Smith on any document that says 'any other name you have been known by'? Surely? Is Miss Jones every really able to lose the Smith completely? would she really expect never to hear it again?

And say the married name was unusual like Fernsby. Women can choose to change their name or not. What if a friend or a cousin or sister met another Mr Fernsby and wanted to marry and take the name Fernsby, would anyone think it reasonable if the women for whom that name was 'dead' objected to the name change and having another Mrs Fernsby in the family even if the name was a traumatic one where there had been DV or soemthing?

Those of us who do change our names have our MIL, and SIL possibly too, all the same Mrs xxxx as we are. Possibly even the ex-wife too! Maybe more than one ex-wife!! Are woman just more used to having odd name associations and changes?

Although this story is a transman I associate the deadname issue more with transwomen for some reason. Maybe because women expect and evolving name identity?

OP posts:
StaunchMomma · 14/08/2022 16:12

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

But there IS if it is the name of eg their Grandmother and they want to honour her.

Her brother does not own their Grandmother's name just because they were given it too! Especially if they're not even using it anymore!

BreadInCaptivity · 14/08/2022 16:10

achillestoes · 13/08/2022 20:57

‘Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling.’

Just use the pronouns I want.

Just call me my new name.

Just pretend people can change sex.

Just name your baby what I say.

This.....

Transition doesn't give you the right to act like a black hole, sucking all the goodwill, sympathy, understanding and attention from everyone who falls into your gravitational pull, whilst providing non of the above in return.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 14/08/2022 15:57

Humbold · 13/08/2022 21:56

I can't imagine a universe where I'd give a thought to my sibling's opinion on my child's name.Absolutely none of their business.

Is the sibling objecting because they get triggered by hearing their previous name? Well tough titty. But I suppose the big question is how on earth does the pregnant woman know what sex their baby is - surely it hasn't been 'assigned at birth' yet?

And then we have the contentious concept of a 'dead name'. Many of us baulk at that descriptor and many gender believers are scathing about the use of 'transwidow' and find it highly offensive and transphobic.

I suggest that someone who uses the phrase 'deadname' has no right to think it outrageous, cruel and offensive to use the phrase 'trans widow'. And vice versa obvs 🙂

I really dislike the word “deadname”. It’s unhealthy. They changed their name. Nobody died.
But it's an important part of the hyperbolic meeeeee drama: I died! I have risen again transformed! Look at meeeeee!

Same with the ancestor's name. So what if she was a scientist, a suffragette, a fascinating person doing valuable work? Her name offends meeeeee so I allow nobody to use it.

many gender believers are scathing about the use of 'transwidow' and find it highly offensive and transphobic. I suggest that someone who uses the phrase 'deadname' has no right to think it outrageous, cruel and offensive to use the phrase 'trans widow'.

Very good point.

BlossomsOnATree · 14/08/2022 15:44

And yes it's suspicious that this TM cares. Caring means they're not as dissociated from the name as they pretend, are they? In fact, if this name is so "dead" to them, they should be happy for someone new to have it and for that new family member to be the one who's associated with it.

BlossomsOnATree · 14/08/2022 15:41

I agree "deadname" is a horrible word. Some people really have lost loved ones - it must be awful for them when people bang on about "deadnames" which have nothing to do with anyone having died.

As PPs have said the situation in the OP has a lot to do with the whole elevating of trans into a sacred state and making people think all their demands must be met – so those of them who were perhaps on the less reasonable side to start with are going to keep making more and more ridiculous demands. The next natural step will be that trans people can demand other people have to change their own names to they are not triggered by "deadnames" . After all not that different from demanding we pretend we think someone has changed sex and demanding we use the pronouns they prescribe.

Well said Madeley.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 14/08/2022 15:39

'It's not your name'.

End.

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 15:31

DarkDayforMN · 14/08/2022 14:50

It makes them feel "unsafe" that someone else has the name that was theirs? Good fucking christ almighty. I don't normally like the term snowflake but it couldn't be more accurate for this epic bullshit.

I know what you mean, I can’t help thinking stuff like “clearly these mollycoddled halfwits have never been actually unsafe in their entire lives” and then 😳 at the kind of judgement my brain is coming out with.

and I have to remind myself it’s more complicated than that. Lots of them have spent time in the trans community. That isn’t safe, especially for girls. Lots of them have been exposed to porn at an early age, many of them have been sexually abused. I think a lot of the female ones probably do feel fundamentally unsafe all the time and the trans stuff is a way to manage those feelings. I wish it was less maladaptive, and less freaking annoying, though.

There is a huge cross over between girls believing they are trans/non binary and those who have been sexually abused and suffered trauma, that is absolutely correct

And the answer to that is to seek and obtain help for that trauma, 'becoming trans' is not doing that at all, its adding another toxic layer to what has been experienced already

Datun · 14/08/2022 15:01

I can understand a sibling objecting to say the same name as their ex husband, for instance. But the problem with this specific incident is the 'everyone must accommodate me or else' line that runs through the ideology like a stick of rock.

DarkDayforMN · 14/08/2022 14:50

It makes them feel "unsafe" that someone else has the name that was theirs? Good fucking christ almighty. I don't normally like the term snowflake but it couldn't be more accurate for this epic bullshit.

I know what you mean, I can’t help thinking stuff like “clearly these mollycoddled halfwits have never been actually unsafe in their entire lives” and then 😳 at the kind of judgement my brain is coming out with.

and I have to remind myself it’s more complicated than that. Lots of them have spent time in the trans community. That isn’t safe, especially for girls. Lots of them have been exposed to porn at an early age, many of them have been sexually abused. I think a lot of the female ones probably do feel fundamentally unsafe all the time and the trans stuff is a way to manage those feelings. I wish it was less maladaptive, and less freaking annoying, though.

SuperPets · 14/08/2022 14:36

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/08/2022 22:44

This week, I found someone asking on a transgender reddit whether it was reasonable, post-transition, to ban one's friends from having acquaintances that had one's former name/deadname.

I still haven't worked out whether this is a genuine question or someone trolling the reddit members.

thread

A friend of a friend has my deadname and each time I hear it I feel very uncomfortable. I know it's their name, but I just get triggered by hearing it. Also, I'm fairly new to my chosen name, so maybe in ten years I wouldn't mind, but right now it makes me feel unsafe.

So what do I do? Should I tell my friend to not talk about that person anymore because of my deadname and that I don't want to be around the person in general, thus having to let them know my deadname? Do I just quit the friendship I have with them or distance myself for some time? And out of interest: Would it be reasonable to have it as a boundary to not start a friendship with someone who has my deadname or is in proximity to someone with my deadname?

I know that there is not one answer, but my issue right now is that I don't know how to handle this situation that makes me very uncomfortable. And somehow there isn't much information to find about this topic on the internet. So I'd be open to suggestions or examples of how you handled this kind of situation.

It makes them feel "unsafe" that someone else has the name that was theirs? Good fucking christ almighty. I don't normally like the term snowflake but it couldn't be more accurate for this epic bullshit.

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 14/08/2022 14:32

Just choose another name, no need for all the drama.

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 14:17

It was quite a jarring use of grammar, not official mnhq style - someone's gone rogue or slipped in the back door!

Mumsnut · 14/08/2022 14:17

Joanne Katherine would be a nice alternative to the intended name. Perhaps JK for short?

TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2022 14:13

I would like an explanation of the reasoning behind the wording of the original deletion message and the reasoning behind the change. Hmmmm.

Me too

Datun · 14/08/2022 14:12

SpinCityBlues · 14/08/2022 14:09

New mod?

There's no way that every TRA/MRA in the country isn't trying to become a MN mod!

SpinCityBlues · 14/08/2022 14:09

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 13:46

What did the deletion message say before it was changed to the standard one?

Something like 'this message has been deleted as it is anti trans'

New mod?

SpinCityBlues · 14/08/2022 14:09

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

Huns and glitter >>>>>

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 14:06

Deadname, lol

A word invented to be as overly dramatic as possible.

FlibbertyGiblets · 14/08/2022 14:02

I would like an explanation of the reasoning behind the wording of the original deletion message and the reasoning behind the change. Hmmmm.

Somanysocks · 14/08/2022 13:46

Haha, just seen my post has been deleted upthread, don't think I said anything offensive and that hasn't been said before. Someone must be extremely sensitive methinks.

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 13:46

What did the deletion message say before it was changed to the standard one?

Something like 'this message has been deleted as it is anti trans'

ChagSameachDoreen · 14/08/2022 13:43

I have never known such a group of self-interested entitled narcissists as this new group of "trans" people. It didn't use to be like this. I think all that awareness has gone to their heads.

TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2022 13:41

So if the "anti trans" post was genuinely transphobic then I think it is quite right and appropriate for it to have a different deletion message

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't deletion messages usually just say they've broken talk guidelines? I'm not sure I've ever seen a message call out the particular issue involved.

JustAnotherViper · 14/08/2022 13:37

What did the deletion message say before it was changed to the standard one?

cexuwaleozbu · 14/08/2022 13:35

I don't know that the allegedly "anti trans" post said, but very very occasionally there are actually transphobic things posted, and these are quite rightly deleted. The other post on this thread that has been deleted has the "normal" deletion message. There are plenty of posts on this thread which aren't remotely transphobic which a TRA would nevertheless rather not be allowed to be said as they don't tow the right line.

So if the "anti trans" post was genuinely transphobic then I think it is quite right and appropriate for it to have a different deletion message. We have the freedom here to discuss issues at the interface of gender identity ideology and feminism which would be shut down anywhere else, but genuine transphobia (actual hatred of people who identify as trans, actively wanting them to be disadvantaged, discriminated against etc) is still wrong. I have lost count of the number of times I have seen a post from a TRA lamenting "all the transphobia" and the usual response is "if you see a post that is transphobic, report it and it will be deleted, but disagreeing with you is not transphobic." With this in mind I think it's very sensible for any actually transphobic posts to have a specific deletion message. So long as there is a robust process at MNHQ for reviewing when it is used, it will demonstrate how rare actual transphobic posts here are.