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Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’

133 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:14

Interesting piece on the agony uncle pages of the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/dear-richard-madeley-transgender-brother-furious-choice-baby/

The key point is that a pregnant woman who has a transman sibling wants to name her baby after a female ancestor who was important to them as she (ancestor) was a suffragette and a scientist. Transman sibling has stopped to talking to her because the ancestor's name is also the transman's deadname. The writer of the letter and the wider family had supported the transman through transition and had previously had a good relationship.

Richard's reply is that she should name the baby what she likes and to "tell your brother to grow up. There’s already one baby on the way.
"You say he had full family support during his trans journey. Well, support flows both ways. Tell him how important it is to you to honour your ancestor. And why shouldn’t you? Is this valued family figure – part of ALL your collective pasts – destined to become a sort of non-person simply because of your brother?
As for him refusing to speak to you over this… well, really. He’s being over-dramatic and, frankly, ridiculous. In fact, if the naming of his little niece is the biggest thing in his life he has to worry about, he’s an extremely lucky man."

Which I thought was very good advice.

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of a deadname.

If dead then surely can be re-used? If there is still an issue then it is not dead at all. Say the deadname was Sally and the transman is now Fred then it suggests philosophically there is still a Sally-iness about Fred, if it really was a dead name there would not be. And that is why Fred is uncomfortable. If there never was any Sally to Fred and just Fred waiting to come out then surely the Sally name should be available to use within the family for others??

I wonder if a situation with the married surname of a woman who divorces and wants to never hear her ex-name again is structurally similar?

Mrs Smith goes back to being Miss Jones. Changes her documents and never, ever, ever uses the name again. Miss Jones would still have to use Smith on any document that says 'any other name you have been known by'? Surely? Is Miss Jones every really able to lose the Smith completely? would she really expect never to hear it again?

And say the married name was unusual like Fernsby. Women can choose to change their name or not. What if a friend or a cousin or sister met another Mr Fernsby and wanted to marry and take the name Fernsby, would anyone think it reasonable if the women for whom that name was 'dead' objected to the name change and having another Mrs Fernsby in the family even if the name was a traumatic one where there had been DV or soemthing?

Those of us who do change our names have our MIL, and SIL possibly too, all the same Mrs xxxx as we are. Possibly even the ex-wife too! Maybe more than one ex-wife!! Are woman just more used to having odd name associations and changes?

Although this story is a transman I associate the deadname issue more with transwomen for some reason. Maybe because women expect and evolving name identity?

OP posts:
OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 19:06

Clymene · 14/08/2022 18:56

Doesn't want the name, doesn't want anyone else to have the name.

It's controlling and narcissistic behaviour.

And we all need to stop pandering to it.

Show quote history

I don't see it as such I have to say, maybe because I think, if given a choice in the matter, I'd very much dislike sharing a name with a close family member. And I'm not a narcissist I assure you 😁

It's clear the transman still feels that this name is part of their identity. I think this is nothing to do with whether the person is trans or not really. It's a separate issue.

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 19:00

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:54

The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

But that's the thing. It's very clear the transman does want the name, if only for historical reasons. I'd respect that, if I were the sibling.

What do you mean they do want the name. That doesnt make sense. Its a 'deadnam' as far as they're concerned

Twawmyarse · 14/08/2022 18:59

I've always quite liked Richard Madeley (scuttles off in shame..)

Clymene · 14/08/2022 18:56

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:54

The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

But that's the thing. It's very clear the transman does want the name, if only for historical reasons. I'd respect that, if I were the sibling.

Doesn't want the name, doesn't want anyone else to have the name.

It's controlling and narcissistic behaviour.

And we all need to stop pandering to it.

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:54

The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

But that's the thing. It's very clear the transman does want the name, if only for historical reasons. I'd respect that, if I were the sibling.

Wellies54 · 14/08/2022 18:52

In a way, giving the baby the name might distance it from the brother. At the moment everyone in the family associates it with the brother 's past but as the child grows up, she will grow into this name and it will be her's to own and to take on the continuation of the family tradition.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 18:38

Gosh no need to get so angry @Aberration! It's just the same turn of phrase used every time is a bit of a repeat pattern. I'm sorry you've been doxxed by TRAs. Withholding some of your identity and not using the same name across different sites is a good idea.

Anyway, this isn't an ordinary name. It's the name of a brilliant female ancestor. A suffragette. The transman doesn't want the name and doesn't even want to be female.

I think it's absolutely fine in those circumstances for their sister to want to reclaim the name.

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 18:32

FunnyBeaux · 14/08/2022 17:50

WADR this, and a PP, is batshit. You don't own the copyright of your name. There can be 20 'Peter's in a family and they're all individuals with their own name - they're not sharing one big one.

You know that many cultures/families will name children after grandparents or other relatives, so you'd easily get several namesakes in the same family.

Show quote history

I doing think my point of view is at all batshit.
And of course I know that children are commonly called after grandparents etc.

Just saying that I do empathise with someone who wouldn't want a niece or nephew to be given the same name as them, because I wouldn't like this either. And no, I don't think I own my name. But there are lots of names my sibling could choose without using mine.

Others have said the same. It's not that unusual to feel like this. I'd have thought it might be a bit different if you're actually not using the name yourself anymore, but it seems maybe not.

Notmanybroadbeans · 14/08/2022 18:31

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.

Me too, actually. I don't get this one. If you grow up with a sister called "Emma" you and the entire family will always strongly associate that name with her. Even if Emma decides to become Ryan, it still feels like it's naming the baby after her/him to use Emma. It feels a bit disingenuous to say "it's not about you, it's about our ancestor". How did she expect her sibling to react? It's massively awkward and needless - she could have just used it as a middle name. I would say the same if sister Emma had simply changed her name to Krystal - it's not about the trans angle for me. It's like saying "remember that name you didn't like being called? Well here it is, in your face, forever!".

BreadInCaptivity · 14/08/2022 18:24

a good compromise would be a middle name.

Whose compromising here....Hmm

It's all one way traffic isn't it.....as a pp put, we will call you your new name, use your preferred pronouns and pretend you can change sex.....and you get to dictate what the baby's name is.....

A middle name isn't a compromise. It's not naming the baby what you want because another person (whose not the parent) demands it.

I'm not exactly seeing a middle ground here - just one person making demands at the expense of everyone else.

You know why I'm super GC? Because I started off thinking there was a middle ground, that compromises could be made.

Thing is compromises only work when there is movement on both sides that's equal. I pretty quickly learned that when it comes to this issue, nothing other than total capitulation to gender ideology is enough.

So I now hold the line and no, I'm not flexible about it.

Aberration · 14/08/2022 18:19

carefullycourageous · 14/08/2022 17:20

I would not pick this name if it was me.

I have a relative who changed their name (nothing to do with gender, the change was made for other reasons) and it would have been quite odd to subsequently call a family baby their original name.

Thank you! I am the equivalent of your relative in so I tried to explain that viewpoint here but I don’t think I did very well.

Aberration · 14/08/2022 18:14

BreadInCaptivity · 14/08/2022 17:34

Well this is what I mean. I imagine the trans person is worried that having their name back in family/friend circulation will mean people slip up more and use it for them. Having spent years(?) trying to drop it from peoples minds I can see why they’d be gutted for it to come back.

The thing is that in this case, the name has a wider family association.

As per RM's response, is there an expectation that this ancestor is airbrushed from family history to placate one person who chose to give up this name for another?

And frankly why should they expect family to "drop" that name in respect of their own life experiences anyway?

Are you suggesting people should re-write their memories? To "remember" the time they went to the beach with their brother Oliver as a child (when they went with their sister Anne)?

Are our own recollections and memories to be "edited" on one persons say so?

Are family members expected to repress their own experiences? To lie not only to the world but themselves?

Can you imagine what a head fuck that would be? To reframe every pre-transition memory and alter it?

Families are made up of individuals and it's deeply flawed (and fundamentally very unhealthy) to suggest one person gets to dictate how the rest remember and experienced their lives.

i don’t think people should be asked to reframe their memories. It’s impossible anyway. I’ve heard stories of trans people wanting to burn photos and not speak about life pretransition and I really feel for the families in that situation.

I just meant if my dad regularly used the name Anne again because it was my nieces name it would be closer to his mind and he’d probably call me Anne a few times without thinking. Because (as is the case with the trans person I assume in cases where they knew then pretransition ) he probably still thinks of me as Anne but calls me by the name I’ve chosen to be polite.

a good compromise would be a middle name.

FunnyBeaux · 14/08/2022 17:50

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 11:25

Are you taking the piss? Her baby, her choice.

I think I'd feel differently if it were a former name, but I must say I wouldn't like a sibling using my name for their child. It would feel odd, like something was being taken from me. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but that's how I feel. The same wouldn't apply to friends' children though, just within the family.

WADR this, and a PP, is batshit. You don't own the copyright of your name. There can be 20 'Peter's in a family and they're all individuals with their own name - they're not sharing one big one.

You know that many cultures/families will name children after grandparents or other relatives, so you'd easily get several namesakes in the same family.

Somanysocks · 14/08/2022 17:40

Some people need to learn that not everything is about them, it's very entitled to want everybody else to do what they want when it's not their business.

(See if this gets deleted as it's my reworded post).

BreadInCaptivity · 14/08/2022 17:34

Well this is what I mean. I imagine the trans person is worried that having their name back in family/friend circulation will mean people slip up more and use it for them. Having spent years(?) trying to drop it from peoples minds I can see why they’d be gutted for it to come back.

The thing is that in this case, the name has a wider family association.

As per RM's response, is there an expectation that this ancestor is airbrushed from family history to placate one person who chose to give up this name for another?

And frankly why should they expect family to "drop" that name in respect of their own life experiences anyway?

Are you suggesting people should re-write their memories? To "remember" the time they went to the beach with their brother Oliver as a child (when they went with their sister Anne)?

Are our own recollections and memories to be "edited" on one persons say so?

Are family members expected to repress their own experiences? To lie not only to the world but themselves?

Can you imagine what a head fuck that would be? To reframe every pre-transition memory and alter it?

Families are made up of individuals and it's deeply flawed (and fundamentally very unhealthy) to suggest one person gets to dictate how the rest remember and experienced their lives.

EinsteinaGogo · 14/08/2022 17:30

carefullycourageous · 14/08/2022 17:20

I would not pick this name if it was me.

I have a relative who changed their name (nothing to do with gender, the change was made for other reasons) and it would have been quite odd to subsequently call a family baby their original name.

This.

carefullycourageous · 14/08/2022 17:20

I would not pick this name if it was me.

I have a relative who changed their name (nothing to do with gender, the change was made for other reasons) and it would have been quite odd to subsequently call a family baby their original name.

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 17:16

The sibling is going to have to manage that then arent they.

Its hardly odd or rare for family members to share names.

Aberration · 14/08/2022 17:10

BreadInCaptivity · 14/08/2022 16:23

They are not sharing it though.

It's a name they no longer want/use.

Nobody will ever have to ask - do you mean Anne (aunt) or Anne (baby). If they did I'd expect the sibling would find offence they were being referred to by their former name.

Show quote history

Well this is what I mean. I imagine the trans person is worried that having their name back in family/friend circulation will mean people slip up more and use it for them. Having spent years(?) trying to drop it from peoples minds I can see why they’d be gutted for it to come back.

if she wants to call her daughter this name then it’s her perogative but I don’t think the trans sibling was wrong for sharing that it would make them uncomfortable. If my sister used “Anne” for her child I wouldn’t stop speaking to her but I would be disappointed. And I’d hope she’d not hate me for raising my discomfort before the child was named.

Aberration · 14/08/2022 17:02

@Clymene for what it’s worth - I’ve been around about 5/6 years with various usernames and emails. I hardly post now as I got doxxed previously and my work complained to by TRA’s so excuse me for not having a high enough post count for your approval 🙄

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:59

@Clymene don’t need your words ta. Do you expect all new posters to start with bloody phrases like penguin bollards just to prove how long they’ve been around?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 14/08/2022 16:51

Sometimes you have to keep the peace and be the grown up.

///

AKA women, do as you're told or it's literal violence.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 16:40

Word to the wise: repeatedly using the phrase 'I'm as GC as they come' with a new username and a weak argument on different threads is not enormously convincing

BreadInCaptivity · 14/08/2022 16:23

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.

They are not sharing it though.

It's a name they no longer want/use.

Nobody will ever have to ask - do you mean Anne (aunt) or Anne (baby). If they did I'd expect the sibling would find offence they were being referred to by their former name.

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.