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Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’

133 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:14

Interesting piece on the agony uncle pages of the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/dear-richard-madeley-transgender-brother-furious-choice-baby/

The key point is that a pregnant woman who has a transman sibling wants to name her baby after a female ancestor who was important to them as she (ancestor) was a suffragette and a scientist. Transman sibling has stopped to talking to her because the ancestor's name is also the transman's deadname. The writer of the letter and the wider family had supported the transman through transition and had previously had a good relationship.

Richard's reply is that she should name the baby what she likes and to "tell your brother to grow up. There’s already one baby on the way.
"You say he had full family support during his trans journey. Well, support flows both ways. Tell him how important it is to you to honour your ancestor. And why shouldn’t you? Is this valued family figure – part of ALL your collective pasts – destined to become a sort of non-person simply because of your brother?
As for him refusing to speak to you over this… well, really. He’s being over-dramatic and, frankly, ridiculous. In fact, if the naming of his little niece is the biggest thing in his life he has to worry about, he’s an extremely lucky man."

Which I thought was very good advice.

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of a deadname.

If dead then surely can be re-used? If there is still an issue then it is not dead at all. Say the deadname was Sally and the transman is now Fred then it suggests philosophically there is still a Sally-iness about Fred, if it really was a dead name there would not be. And that is why Fred is uncomfortable. If there never was any Sally to Fred and just Fred waiting to come out then surely the Sally name should be available to use within the family for others??

I wonder if a situation with the married surname of a woman who divorces and wants to never hear her ex-name again is structurally similar?

Mrs Smith goes back to being Miss Jones. Changes her documents and never, ever, ever uses the name again. Miss Jones would still have to use Smith on any document that says 'any other name you have been known by'? Surely? Is Miss Jones every really able to lose the Smith completely? would she really expect never to hear it again?

And say the married name was unusual like Fernsby. Women can choose to change their name or not. What if a friend or a cousin or sister met another Mr Fernsby and wanted to marry and take the name Fernsby, would anyone think it reasonable if the women for whom that name was 'dead' objected to the name change and having another Mrs Fernsby in the family even if the name was a traumatic one where there had been DV or soemthing?

Those of us who do change our names have our MIL, and SIL possibly too, all the same Mrs xxxx as we are. Possibly even the ex-wife too! Maybe more than one ex-wife!! Are woman just more used to having odd name associations and changes?

Although this story is a transman I associate the deadname issue more with transwomen for some reason. Maybe because women expect and evolving name identity?

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IsadoraQuagmire · 15/08/2022 21:52

Clymene · 15/08/2022 21:18

It said 'deleted for anti-Trans' or similar. @IsadoraQuagmire - it really would be worth you contacting MNHQ during office hours and finding out what that was about.

I'm not bothered. If knowing (like the vast, vast, VAST majority of people know) that humans can't change sex is "transphobic" then that's just too bad for the TRAs Grin I was looking at a thread about JKR on Twitter a while ago, where a bunch of fools were saying she IS transphobic because she believes there are only 2 sexes. I can't be arsed with such stupidity and ignorance.

aweegc · 15/08/2022 21:51

Joanne Katherine would be a nice alternative to the intended name. Perhaps JK for short?

😅

Moral of this story is do not tell anybody - anybody - baby's name until it's born. Even better if it's registered quickly. There's always someone who has a problem with it, even without a renowned relative and trans sibling.

Clymene · 15/08/2022 21:18

It said 'deleted for anti-Trans' or similar. @IsadoraQuagmire - it really would be worth you contacting MNHQ during office hours and finding out what that was about.

CaptainCreepsBourgeMobile · 15/08/2022 21:10

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 14/08/2022 11:32

When did that deletion message start?

I don't know what was said but as an official deletion message that I weird. Has anyone noticed it before? I'd like to report it with a bit more information to go on!

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What did it say? It just says "message deleted" now.

crosstalk · 15/08/2022 21:01

Names are odd things. In some countries and societies they are happy to go with John Burgomeister 1, John Junior, John Burgomeister 2 like hereditary titles. Even when there aren't fortunes attached. In most countries until fairly recently women have taken their husbands' surnames or spliced them on. In some religions you only name a child after the dead, not the living. So they are totemic in a way - how many of us are tempted to/do correct people who misname us? However I have a long running name in my family - not famous but much loved and admired people had it. If my brother transed (and several people in our family have) and decided my baby DS couldn't be called Cuthbert because that was his former name, I'd just go ahead.

Tallwhitepine · 15/08/2022 12:25

Beowulfa · 15/08/2022 10:40

I'm genuinely surprised that so many people wouldn't like a sibling using their name for a niece/nephew. I'd be quietly flattered and would then get the fuck on with my life.

Is this the modern obsession with unique equating to "special"? A friend of mine was taken aback on discovering her daughter was one of 4 Isabellas in her Reception class....

When I found out a family friend gave her daughter my name I was nothing but pleased. How touching that she had such a positive impression of me and my name that she used it for her baby. What a sour outlook I'd have if I assumed she did it to piss me off.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 15/08/2022 11:51

'A friend of a friend has my deadname and each time I hear it I feel very uncomfortable. I know it's their name, but I just get triggered by hearing it. Also, I'm fairly new to my chosen name, so maybe in ten years I wouldn't mind, but right now it makes me feel unsafe.'

So in some circles the new meaning of 'unsafe' is 'uncomfortable'. Actually, that makes a lot of sense when you hear 'unsafe' used by TRAs.

IsadoraQuagmire · 15/08/2022 11:20

Hahaha I see my post was deleted. I can't remember what I said, but guess what; I STILL know that human beings can't actually sex Grin

Notmanybroadbeans · 15/08/2022 11:07

Beowulfa · 15/08/2022 10:40

I'm genuinely surprised that so many people wouldn't like a sibling using their name for a niece/nephew. I'd be quietly flattered and would then get the fuck on with my life.

Is this the modern obsession with unique equating to "special"? A friend of mine was taken aback on discovering her daughter was one of 4 Isabellas in her Reception class....

Well, it's clearly a name with baggage, isn't it?
But even if it weren't - if the sibling still used the name - then it is an unusual thing to do nowadays. It's almost like they've forgotten you're already called that.

Beowulfa · 15/08/2022 10:40

I'm genuinely surprised that so many people wouldn't like a sibling using their name for a niece/nephew. I'd be quietly flattered and would then get the fuck on with my life.

Is this the modern obsession with unique equating to "special"? A friend of mine was taken aback on discovering her daughter was one of 4 Isabellas in her Reception class....

Marynotsocontrary · 15/08/2022 02:13

There really wouldn't be loads of conversations. The context in which the name is used would be clear.

Not always.
I have four cousins with the same name. They all use the full name, no nicknames or shortenings, and two share a surname too. If any of them come up in conversation we always have to clarify who we're speaking about using either the surname or a parents' name.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 15/08/2022 00:36

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.

There really wouldn't be loads of conversations. The context in which the name is used would be clear.

You sound very precious.

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 23:23

Has he a view on TMAM? Oh wait, no one ever asks that.

tootiredtobother · 14/08/2022 22:42

have not read the full thread but I remember Madeley being very TWAW. so hes flip flop' in again, was also 'climate change is not real', about 10 years ago.

Athenajm80 · 14/08/2022 22:37

I wonder what would happen further down the line if "he" de-transed? Would the name be taken back, would a new name be chosen? Maybe the transman is already having doubts so wants their name kept free in case they want it back later?🤔

Totally agree with pp who said about a toddler not wanting to play with a toy but no one else can play with it either. Very dog in the manger attitude

WarriorN · 14/08/2022 20:51

Not about, actually 3 out of 5!

WarriorN · 14/08/2022 20:50

About 3/5 of the women on my mothers side of the family all have the same name.

Such an element of control in all this.
Controlling your body, names, how people interact with you (pronouns) what people think of you (lie about your sex.)

Marynotsocontrary · 14/08/2022 20:34

I can't imagine feeling anything but flattered if someone else in the family had my name.
My brother and SIL briefly considered my name for their baby daughter. I somehow hated the idea (never said, though I might if they had given it more lengthy consideration, I'm not sure).

And indeed someone in the younger generation of my partner's family does, named long before he met me. At no point have I considered demanding they change the name. That would be insane.
Yes it would, but that's a very different situation to a sibling giving their child your name.

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 20:18

teezletangler · 14/08/2022 20:03

Hmm. I usually have no time for narcissistic TRA demands, but it's quite unusual to give your child the same first name as your sibling. My sister and I are close, but if she announced that she had given her baby my name, I'd think it was weird and object. (My DD does have the same middle name as my sister as a family connection, but middle names feel different.)

This situation does feel a bit goady. And yes I wonder if she would choose the name if the sibling was still using it...

Lots of children are named after uncles and aunties, its not the slightest bit unusual and usually very flattering.

teezletangler · 14/08/2022 20:03

Hmm. I usually have no time for narcissistic TRA demands, but it's quite unusual to give your child the same first name as your sibling. My sister and I are close, but if she announced that she had given her baby my name, I'd think it was weird and object. (My DD does have the same middle name as my sister as a family connection, but middle names feel different.)

This situation does feel a bit goady. And yes I wonder if she would choose the name if the sibling was still using it...

newrubylane · 14/08/2022 19:53

Aberration · 14/08/2022 16:13

I didn’t like my given name. I go by a nickname now. Id still find it really bloody weird if my sister decided to use it for her child. There would be loads of conversations around family where she’d have to clarify “my sister Anne” or “my daughter Anne” and older family would probably slip back into using my Sunday name with me accidentally because it was in their minds more which I’d find irritating.

im as GC as they come but can totally get this trans persons point of view. They would have the issues I described above which has more connotations when they have probably had people trip up and use the wrong name loads.

I think even if I liked my name I’d find it annoying to share with a niece.

Actually, quite the opposite. Someone in my family gave her son the same 'full' name as an older family member. The elder has generally always gone by the shortened version. The child now goes almost exclusively by the full version because his parents couldn't get used to calling him by the short name as it already 'belonged' to the older family member. It causes no confusion at all.

Honestly, no one owns a name and particularly not if they have already rejected said name. I can't imagine feeling anything but flattered if someone else in the family had my name. And indeed someone in the younger generation of my partner's family does, named long before he met me. At no point have I considered demanding they change the name. That would be insane.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 19:37

So let's get this straight.

It's a venerable ancestor's name. It's a name they were given in honour of the ancestor but they don't want it and are angry if anyone calls them by that name.

But despite the fact they don't want it, they don't want anyone else to have it either.

It's like one of those kids at soft play who are bored with the kiddy car but have a tantrum if anyone else wants to use it in case they change their minds

ivejustgotthis · 14/08/2022 19:20

Ironically if the sibling hadn't dropped the name the sister might not have felt the need to keep it in the family (as it was already in the family)

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 19:15

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 19:12

Surely if the name meant absolutely nothing to them (positive or negative) they wouldn't care who used it? It does have a lot of meaning for them in some way and I think that should be respected by a sibling.

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People like this make out they are triggered or upset by hearing the name, thats whats its about. And as someone said above its controlling and narcissistic.

You dont get to control what your own sibling calls their own child!!!

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 19:12

bellac11 · 14/08/2022 19:00

What do you mean they do want the name. That doesnt make sense. Its a 'deadnam' as far as they're concerned

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Surely if the name meant absolutely nothing to them (positive or negative) they wouldn't care who used it? It does have a lot of meaning for them in some way and I think that should be respected by a sibling.