What does Val McDermid mean?

Calling anyone a piece of shit is unacceptable. And yes, insults are unnecessary. VM is clearly intelligent.

I think the problem is most often a couple of blind spots. People fix on the marginalization of transwomen and ignore completely the marginalization of women - particularly some subsets of women who will be disproportionately impacted by the inclusion of males in women's spaces- by spaces I mean not just physical tents but stats, shortlists, groups, etc.

Never yet heard a good reason why it's okay to exclude some.women but not Ok to exclude transwomen. Why do transwomen get priority over women?

I was about to post something pithy and dismissive until I read this, but your point about butch lesbians made me stop and think. A former, much missed poster used to talk sometimes about the abuse she got because of her appearance, and I had the impression that some of this abuse was from women.

So yes, I can see how this might lead to a feeling of kinship with gender non-conforming men. It doesn't make any more sense of what McDermid said, but it does make me more curious about what's behind it than I am about, let's say Margaret Atwood's motivations. I'd like to see the whole interview / essay rather than just a couple of sentences so that I can unpick it properly. Does anyone know where it's from? (Sorry if the info's in the thread already but I couldn't see it.)

And yeah, I was going to reply that disagreement didn't = kneejerk abuse but then I read back and, while the vast majority of posts aren't abusive we've still had the likes of 'dim' 'thick' 'stupid' 'bitchy' (which normally gets shot down pretty quickly on here) and 'piece of shit'.

Just a comment about feminists including all.marginalised people.

Sure - but not as women. Gay men who experience homophobia aren't women. Black men who experience racism aren't women. Disabled people excluded from employment aren't necessarily women. The idea that thinking intersectionally means mushing everyone into a single tent is in fact the exact opposite of what Kimberle Crenshaw wrote.

Right to the heart of the matter there TheBiologyStupid!

Val McDermid has been a virulent MRA/AWA and a misogynist piece of shit for as long as I can remember.

The fact the someone is a woman and can write and writes about women doesn't make them a feminist. Val McDermid is an out and out screaming, flagrant anti-feminist.

This was my thought too.

I cheered and supported her stance earlier this year when she ended her sponsorship with Raith Rovers after it signed David Goodwillie, and was scathing in her condemnation of the Board for it. I think she went on Women's Hour to speak about him and the club too. She was incandescent about it.

It's jarring to try and understand how her position on this might change when we consider allowing a rapist into a women's prison, rather than her beloved football team.

I wonder if Sandy Toksvig and Val would date a TW with a lady penis? Cause if TWAW, then surely both of them would be willing to if they were single? 🤔

Looks like I will need to stop reading her book. We can cancel in the other direction too.

You are not even allowed an awning off the tent.

*I'm reading it as 'Kim Kardashian is a bloke'.

Amirite*

🤣

She is a hypocrite, big pal of Sturgeon, only concerned with feathering her own nest and completely out of touch with the majority of both straight & lesbian women in Scotland.

If she sees womanhood as gender, and kk, herself and her nice TWAW friends part of it, it still doesn't explain what links everyone. It doesn't explain gender.

It's not sex or presentation, it can only be 'everyone who wants to be in the tent', with no limits. The only difference between womanhood and presumably manhood is wanting to be part of it.

So it's basically all just tents with random people in them. And womanhood losing any meaning.

Oh I see, well in that case, maybe she is just thick instead of disingenuous then. Because if she was TWAW I’d have to conclude she was disingenuous because nobody, and I mean NOBODY, not a single person alive, actually, genuinely, believes adult human males are adult human females, exactly the same, no difference. Sure, lots of people have reasons to pretend they do, not sure what hers might be, but, if as you say it’s more a kindness to let them into the ‘tent’, then she’s just bog standard stupid if she doesn’t understand, or want to understand, why that just doesn’t work for women, the cunty kind that is.

Womanhood is gender to me. A gender tent i guess.

It just seems that she no longer thinks sex has the slightest relevance to her life. But she must still know what it is. Knowing what it is is not a crime.

If anyone can be in it, what's the point of the tent?

@achillestoes And wearing dresses (well robes, close enough) so they're obviously women.

That would be more appropriate...

Oh, I was picturing a circus tent.

What happens if you don't like camping and prefer an en-suite with hot shower and flushing toilet? Do you have to share a room with anyone Val thinks suitable?

Is anyone going to need to get undressed in the big tent?

So, McDermid is against rapists in men's football teams but OK with them in women's prisons? Where is she on men in women's football?

I'm somewhat disappointed (although not newly so - pretty sure VM has been clear on this position for a while), but I do think:

• it takes extraordinary gumption to not parrot "TWAW" in some industries at the moment, to the extent that even silence doesn't protect women, and
• VM's position is one I see taken by many middle-aged, intelligent, socially engaged lesbians of my acquaintance. PP made an excellent point about some shared experiences of being made to feel unwelcome in lesbian space, and there's also the factor of wanting to be supportive of trans friends - who don't always fall as easily into "old school transsexuals" vs "self ID".

I don't agree with her, but I can't dismiss it as simply having not thought about the issues.

I read this at first as being KKK - the Klu Klux Klan - and then realised that actually Val would probably include them as well if it meant more sales.