What do people mean by “identify as”?

Our friend Joss Prior on twitter attempted to explain the idea of "feeling like a woman". It doesn't make much sense but if you are looking for an explanation from someone who experiences such a "feeling"...

"If we say we 'feel' like a woman, as a way of verbalising an abstract individual experience

But we cant explain more than that.

That doesnt give anybody else the right to fill in the gaps, to say its 'because stereotypes' or its an 'incoherent ideology'.

Thats just how it is..

I know I'm a woman by the standards of modern western culture as it stands. Two boxes doesnt allow for nuance

On those terms I'm a woman...

When I do the things that other women do...that doesnt make my motivations, gender stereotypes.

Basic correlation, not causeation."

twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1408910842633109511

Anything an adult human female feels is a woman feeling X Y z.

If feelings could turn us into anything I'd be rich, a size ten, and 20 years younger.

However I'm.not. and having never been rich i dont know how it feels I can only imagine via stereotypes and bad movies. This is no different.

And anyone worth anything tells you the truth even if its not what you want to hear. Because its better to come from someone who loves you than finding out the hard way. Like maybe missing medical screenings cos you have been.marked down as the wrong sex. That can kill you so why would you let that happen to a friend.

To me "I identify as......." basically means "Ive swallowed some kool-aid and words no longer mean what they have been understood to mean for centuries. Im moving the boundaries to suit how I feel"

But he thinks he does feel it. You can disagree, and I do, but that doesn’t change how he feels. The issue is what happens when that feeling overrides rights, not the phrasing that person chooses to use.

I very much object to the concept that words can alter their.meanings depending on what the.person saying them.feels about themselves.

In order fir conversations to work.eveeyone has to be clear on what the words in the.language they are using means.orherwise you have multiple people taking entirely different things from the same.word changing the meanimgs completely

It is more than that though. It is " i have an internal sense that i am this thing. Now i have vocalised it, my stated sense on inner self must take precedence over how you perceive me regardless of the objective reality."

"Identify as" has a command of others implicit within it. It is not an invitation for observation or discussion or debate. Two slippery little magic words that tell everyone else they must ignore their eyes and ears or risk being labelled bigot.

But you don’t think that either, because you don’t want people to say ‘I’m pretending to be female’. It’s the concept you object to, not the phrasing they use.

Pretending we believe it is the issue. It can only be true of we pretend none of the words mean anything beyond what people decide they mean.to suit them.

The truth always comes out. Everyone's just to scared to be the one who says it.

Akd that harms the very people you think you are " being kind " too

If you pretended to believe I could really fly i.hope someone.would tell me I couldn't. Preferably before I jump from.a multi story car park. But these days they'd likely just call the ground a bigot for killing.me.

That's interesting.

'where there is more than one reasonable possibility'.

the arguments come when people try to define 'reasonable', don't they?

Rachel Dolezal thought she was 'reasonable' to identify as black - some people think it is 'reasonable' to identify as the opposite sex.

But it’s that mixing that you take issue with, and you’re right, in my opinion. But saying ‘I am pretending to be…’ instead of ‘I identify as…’ doesn’t change that. The issue is mixed sex spaces that should be single sex for perfectly valid reasons.

Of course the definition is an issue.

If men akd women are open categories that mean nothing and anyone can identify into them then bow do you keep track of anything . How do you plan services akd funding etc wotj.mumbers that are false.

And how can anyone claim to fight for their rights when they don't even fight for a way to define themselves.

Hasn’t “I identify as” fallen out of fashion now in trans activist circles because it’s too easily mocked and not something actual women would ever say? If you do a search for “I identify as” on twitter the results are mainly people saying “I identify as a turnip” and various other piss-takes.

I actually view ‘I identify as’ as the same as ‘I assume the identity of…’ and therefore the person is acknowledging they aren’t simply ‘I am’ else they’d say ‘I am’.
so ‘I identify as…’ Means ‘I’m not actually in the whole sense this person/ thing , but I’d like to be seen/ treated as this person/ thing’.
the complication when applying this to gender is that they cannot understand that it’s absolutely fine to be a male who dresses and behaves in a feminine way or even modifies their body to suit this but that this doesn’t make you a woman , it makes you a feminine male or a transperson depending how far you take it . The word ‘woman’ applies to born females and therefore anyone needing to identify as one is most definitely not one .

Surely then the problem isn’t the definitions, it’s the forcing of male-bodied people into female spaces and vice versa?

But man just means adult human male

Its not a feeling
Its a reality

And you cant say you feel like a man without re defining what man is. And this definition is not forth coming. Thats the problem. The only qualifying criteria for a man is to be conceived as a male. Thats it.

Well no, it can’t be, because some people do feel like they feel like a man. You can disagree with that but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

I absolutely do agree that gender norms do not make you biologically a different sex. But they absolutely do mean you can present as a different gender.

Could it be that no one feels like a man they just are if born male and grow up and become an adult human male?

If there's no criteria fir a male identity ,which there cant be as everyone's different, then the only thing they have in common with eachother is their biological make up.

No one has defined a male identity beyond stereotypes and pronouns. We can surely all.agree 4 words and a shirt and tie does not make a man?

Man/male isn't a set of feelings

Well, I say I have no idea but obviously subscribing to gender norms of a particular sex might make you feel more like that sex. Gender norms are ridiculous and a social construct but the next best thing to changing sex, which is impossible.

In what way do you feel attacked? I’m answering the question the OP asked. I have absolutely no idea what makes people feel like a man, how could I know? I’m saying this pretence I’m not knowing how basic phrases are used is pointless.

After all you cant identify as something you cant define.

Why the hostility at being asked to define terms.

Woman- adult human female
Female- sex class that produces ova
Male- sex class that produces sperm

See easy.

No need to attack people just because you can't define basic terms with kit turning them.into meaningless open categories.

Define what makes someone feel male without circular definitions and /or stereotypes.

Its an easy question surely

Great question @StillHappy I have only recently picked up that when filling in formal documents/feedback etc. it no longer asks me if I am male or female but what I identify as.
Like you, I have no idea. I am a woman. Therefore do I identify as a woman? I guess so.

Friends DD wants to be known by a male name but wants to be referred to as they so what do they identify as? If non-binary why the male name?

As somebody who is nearing retirement age, this is all very new and I'm honestly not sure what to think. I refuse to put she/her on emails at work as it's obvious I'm a woman from my name. People seem to get very offended if you get their pronouns wrong and I personally find it all a bit precious and attention seeking.