Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

If you really don't know why you bring up the question of incest (either here or on a second date as some sort of philosophical intelligence test,) that would be worth exploring with a counsellor. Show them this entire thread.

Precisely.

And the OP might get the last word.

But won’t have changed (m)any hearts and/or minds.

But my main observation is that OP really isn't interested in listening/debate/discussion. They just want to win the argument and are using obfuscation, distraction and avoidance. If OP had any real intelligence, they would understand that these tactics do not work when dealing with logic and reason. OP is 'clever' but not intelligent.

The reason this will go to 1k posts is because OP is determined to have the last word and isn't really interested in engaging properly with the discussion and core issues.

I think OP has some empathy issues and some huge blind spots and is also quite a privileged person.

Well, I've been following every single post from the start.

If OP is genuinely a woman, she is a deluded, ignorant, self destructive one.

But my main observation is that OP really isn't interested in listening/debate/discussion. They just want to win the argument and are using obfuscation, distraction and avoidance. If OP had any real intelligence, they would understand that these tactics do not work when dealing with logic and reason. OP is 'clever' but not intelligent.

The reason this will go to 1k posts is because OP is determined to have the last word and isn't really interested in engaging properly with the discussion and core issues.

But so much admiration and thanks to the women (not cis women, not non-trans women) who have taken the time to point out, over and over and over, with intelligence, grace and reason, why the OP is talking compete shite.

Haha, the irony of this...😂

This Mumsnet FWR section's raison d'etre is the unique and persistent passion for abstract discussions of edge cases that could potentially (actually) be leveraged to demonise transgender individuals.

The utter absorption with individual anecdotes that are not representative and the moral panic that is entirely and utterly misplaced. All that misspent energy that could actually be used on something worthwhile! 😂

Did anyone ever find any statistically significant evidence of detriment to women in all those countries that have had more relaxed forms of gender self ID for years now? Been asking for a while now and this board seems to pride itself on the application of scientific process/ robust research ...and yet..nothing?🤔

The OP has posted nothing unreasonable and her argument is sound. This obsession with definition at the expense of another's right to define their reality is just weird. Why do some people think they have authored the dictionary? Language lives and evolves; no one person or group has a monopoly on its terms. It largely functions as a majority agreement, varying in context and time - agreements can change.

I have 2 friends who are lesbians happily dating transwomen, they're all just getting on enjoying their lives, thankfully their lesbian social group is not hounding them about ID, I'm sure they could do without it.

As OP pointed out, the core of what is problematic is inappropriate advances..not gender, and I have to say many lesbians unfortunately have experience of inappropriate advances made by individuals sharing their own chromosomes. It's inappropriate behaviour that needs targeting.

Really? I definitely thought the OP was a woman from the start.

You sound like you’re pleading. And no, there isn’t.

To be clear, OP, we all know its quite possible for a lesbian to fall for a transwoman, complete with penis. People have all kinds of desires and the ability to change their minds, being individuals. Whatever makes them happy, it's their business.

It doesn't mean that the those two individuals are in a lesbian relationship. It doesn't change the definition of lesbian. It doesn't mean transwomen should expect lesbians to accept them into their dating pool.

There are some pretty desperate women who enable all this too.

Anyone who thinks people should have sex they might not want, is a man. Anyone who thinks their sexual needs outrank the person they would like to have sex with, is a man.

It’s basically, ‘how to say you’re a man, without saying you’re a man’ territory.

To be honest, OP, I doubt many of the lesbians who have contributed to this thread really care about whether a TW who is coupled up with a woman says that their relationship is a lesbian one. I mean, they might roll their eyes, but it isn't hurting anyone.

What does hurt lesbians is those TW seeking a "lesbian" relationship trying to pressure them into sex, or into a situation in which they have to defend their sexual orientation, or turn a TW down and be "unkind". (Or risk physical violence or emotional abuse for turning down a TW, as has happened in, yes, a small number, of cases). Why should lesbians even have to engage with why they don't want to have a penis when they have gone to the trouble of seeking out lesbian spaces and labelling themselves so that they don't have to? Why do lesbians have to explain why they don't feel the same about a TW vagina or implants as they do about a female body?

Why, OP, is it ok for others to steal a term that lesbian women were happily using to try to find a partner in order to try to pressure them? And yes, challenging them on their sexual orientation, not disclosing they have a penis or neo vagina until the last possible moment is pressuring - some women may have sex because it is just easier to "get it over with" and get out of there safely. Is that what you really want? This is why lots of us struggle to believe that you are a woman, because lots of us have had situations with males in which we have had to work out whether it is actually safe for us to say no, or where we have given into sex because it seems like the least bad option at a particular point. And you do not seem to understand that. Rather, you seem obsessed with the idea that lesbians might be persuaded around, if only they find the right person who passes well enough to convince them that actually their boundaries were wrong to start with.

I can’t actually remember now why it seemed like a good idea. I think this thread is sending me over the edge slightly.

The Internet is like that. You asked a question, you got some answers, maybe not the ones you wanted but that's the Internet. You could just stop digging.

As for whether your friend can reasonably call herself a lesbian - 30-odd pages and the answer is still "no".

For this parallel experiment, I suggest the Just Gassing subtopic on pistonheads

Or better yet, has the OP posed a similar question on a site of mainly men, in relation to straight men and TW, gay men and TM?

Well we all know the answer to that question

Or better yet, has the OP posed a similar question on a site of mainly men, in relation to straight men and TW, gay men and TM?

Not surprised to see that OP has not managed to answer some of my suggestions:

Why isn't she asking all the straight women on Mumsnet to get the opinions of their husbands about the idea of running their fingers down the stomachs of a TW and running up against something solid in the knicker elastic?

Is that turning any stomachs yet?

So straight men are allowed to be repulsed by male bodies - because the OP accepts their sexual orientation is exclusively towards women - but lesbians are not allowed because it is 'absolutist.'

Or just painful for TW to have their sad illusions demolished.

The OP's delusions are clear in the post - that a lesbian might talk to a TW in a social setting and not KNOW immediately who it was.
That the lesbian has no right to reject the TW - most likely at a distance of 100 metres.

I've been in large settings of lesbians over the years, big groups who've dined out on their repulsive early almost mandatory experiences with men. It's something like a rite of passage. We mostly have to pass through the Dead Marshes - those swamps near Mordor - to get to the delights of women.

In these circles we are always jealous of the Gold Stars - remember in the L Word, Shane and Carmen were Gold star - alphas? Just got a lucky pass over the Dead Marshes and started out with women....

And years later along come 'Cis-gendered' lesbians to tell us we've been deluded all these years. That we don't know ourselves well enough to understand our own sexual orientation?

When I told my straight male flatmate about our jealousy of the Gold Star lesbians, he said 'Ouch'! Because he didn't like to hear the truth of the way we feel.

I told him that 1 minute with a woman was worth more to me than 10,000 years with any man.

Finally I told him to imagine kissing a bristly chin, and added a bit more gruesome detail - and when he was begging me to stop, I told him that was the way I feel - I feel about dating men the same way he feels - it's our shared sexual orientation.

Then he became a 'Lesbro' - a cool old fashioned term for a straight man who completely gets Lesbians and can hang out with us - the male version of the kind of woman who used to hang around gay men and be comfortable with that. He gave me dating advice; picked up the pieces after disasters and helped me get back out there. I could return the favour. Because we both love and desire women.

That camaraderie of loving women.

He got it.

But the OP just never, ever will.

I wonder what other ways OP has morally flexible attitudes towards families and children, other than incest:

Such as some of the threads over past six months:

-is it ok for males to be in a changing room with females of all ages that are not their family. Does it matter if they have an erection or not?

• is it ok to centre the adult male of the family to support them to feed an infant a substance of an unknown composition from their breasts?

-is it ok for a male of any age to be accommodated in a dormitory / room with females on a trip with school or girl guides?

I read the OP as female, but having never grown out of that stage where young women are desperate to prove they're cool and nothing like their mums. Those boring mums who just aren't willing to put in the intellectual effort to identify when incest might be benign.

Talking about your son or siblings in a sexual context makes me want to vomit. How it just gets thrown in there all casual. I've had Jimmy Saville in my head all day today after checking this thread.