Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable.

1. I have taken as much starting point for thinking about this the views and experiences of my lesbian friends who ‘presume’ to define their sexuality as same sex attracted and therefore resist the efforts to make sex less important than gender
2. Goodness, why an ‘absolutist’ approach to any meaning? Definition in language enables us to communicate complex ideas. Can’t do that once every word represents a soup of possible meanings, made up by the person who has decided for themselves what a word now ‘means’
3. And though the word may be ‘absolutist’ it’s application does not have to define someone forever. I am straight. I once had a short affair with a woman. That short affair does not define me as a lesbian.

What's the point of the word lesbian or the word gay if anyone can be attracted to anyone? If you're a lesbian and you like cock, you're just the same as anyone so why have a special word? Well, you can have a special word but I don't care about your special word. When I here someone describe themselves as gay these days I add a massive caveat in my head as they might very well be opposite sex attracted.

Back to political choices... if it's bearable to do so

I don't know if anyone has gone back to the women who were allegedly 'political lesbians' in the past and found out how they have lived since then.

From personal experience I think it is very common for women in particular to override their actual sexual feelings for other reasons. Women are socially taught infinitely more about performing their sexuality than about living it. There are women who also make choices that are theirs to make, such as being with a man they're not attracted to in order to have children, because the desire to have children is stronger for them than their need for an enriching sex life.

I believe women can make choices which could include being with someone they love and feel safe with even if that person's sex is outside their sexuality. That to me is different from sexuality itself being a choice. I'd suggest that quite a few 'lesbians who love transwomen' are the political lesbians of the current era. They're either bisexual or they are making a choice that works for them. They are not in a lesbian relationship.

The misogyny and homophobia from some posters on this thread is shocking but not surprising.

Comparing women who lift weights to men is nothing new, as is the confusion that female sexuality can exist independently from men.

I think what these posts prove is that LGBTQ+ is no longer fit for purposes for lesbians.

Ha ha ha. What am I reading?
Look if I kiss someone in a bar and we end up at mine, the clothes come off and they have no penis, a gun, a rope, a dildo, a pot belly, rapist tattooed on them or any other random surprise, my desire and said person are out the door. And I do not need to provide a reason (although I know getting them out will be an uphill task)

That does not change my sexuality. wtf?

A lesbian who accepts sleeping with males is bi. This is the one thing that changes your sexual orientation if you get into it after a few trials. Sex is the one time genitals actually matter.

People need space to experiment before settling down for what they then decide they prefer. They don't have to wear any of the labels while they figure themselves out.

And a man who likes a strong female body should not have his sexuality questioned. Fuck off with that shit.

Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

It's not a concept ffs, it's a fact, one that is enshrined in Law. Describing it as a 'concept' as if it is something airy fairy is blatantly homophobic.

Hearach15
Plenty of lesbians out there who date trans women.

Can you not see the error in this?

"there are many people, including gay people, who believe that you can be gay/lesbian while finding trans people of the opposite gender attractive."

So that would be a woman attracted to a transman, then? That would be same sex attraction.

Plenty of lesbians out there who date trans women.

What, they haven't worked it their partner's sex yet?

Are you suggesting there is no single trans woman in existence who a woman could chat to/kiss in a bar while still believing them to be a cis woman?

I'd certainly suggest the population of those MTF trans people is quite small.

But that’s not what we’re talking about here - there are many people, including gay people, who believe that you can be gay/lesbian while finding trans people of the opposite gender attractive.

Don't you mean "opposite sex but same gender" in your upside down parlance? Why would gay men find "trans women" attractive, exactly, do you think?

Plenty of bisexual women lesbians out there who date trans women.

Fixed that for you

That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Again, this is why normal people don’t trust you; you are not willing or able to have an honest discussion.

You must know that you are always talking at a tangent, and you must know that normal people can see this, so why do you do it?

The only rational take-away from reading your posts is that trans activists are completely dishonest, and have no issues about bare-faced lies to achieve their aims. In your case the aims seem entirely to harass women until they allow men into their single-sex spaces, their prisons, and their pants.

"Someone who is sexually attracted to women is not suddenly going to be attracted to a man when he decides to identify as female."

Plenty of lesbians out there who date trans women.

How surprising that you totally ignored this, the second post on the thread OP.

Is the truth @Artichokeleaves is telling hurting you?

Lesbian is defined in law and by the overwhelming majority of society as a female exclusively same sex attracted to females. People who are not do not fit this definition and have no business appropriating it.

How disingenuous. You lot just can’t help yourselves can you?

Normal people tend to have a sexual preference, not a gender preference. Someone who is sexually attracted to women is not suddenly going to be attracted to a man when he decides to identify as female.

Trans activists hate women, it seems. How messed up do you have to be; how unpleasant to not only think it but to then come out and say that an athletic woman is a man?

The TWs I have met who might possibly ‘pass’ (as long as the didn’t speak / walk / stand up) have tended to be attracted to gay men for some reason. The TWs who seem to be attracted to females tend not to ‘pass’.
I guess you’d eventually find out the truth once you looked at their medicine cabinet and saw all the hormones they be taking for life.

It means "I'm lesbian/gay and not attracted to trans people." It is only something that gender critical people ever say and most gays and lesbians are highly unlikely ever use the phrase.

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive.

holy shit. Old school misogyny, old school homophobia and old school toxic masculinity all rolled up together in one small-minded sentence by a person who undoubtedly believes themselves to be progressive. Wow, just wow.

these people are entirely broken.

What is the purpose of "non-trans woman"? The word is woman.

Nicely said, Blessed - and I agree with you 100% about Artichoke's excellent posts.

Artichoke, I must say I love every post of yours. Fantastic thinker and writer.

OP - read Kathleen Stocks material girls if you want to understand why we need words to have boundaries in order for them to adequately describe things.

Females who ONLY fancy females have a word - lesbian. It has been their word for a long time. They have fought hard to have that word, and to be treated equally and respected in society.

If some women fancy females and males, they do not fit in the previous category. They have a word - bisexual. They can fancy males who identify and express themselves in all different ways.

If the women who fancy females and also specifically 'transwomen' want their own word, fantastic. They could call themselves blergs, or lesbitrans or whatever they want to create for themselves. If they dont feel bisexual, pan sexual, demi sexual and sexi-flux don't adequately describe them, then crack on.

However they cannot take the word lesbian, because in doing so, that would change the definition of the word lesbian. Then all the females who ONLY fancy females would have no word to describe themselves any longer, and would need to find a new word. Its pretty coloniol, just turning up, booting out the natives, trashing the place and making it suit you. Disrespectful of other people quite frankly.

Too many of these people seem to have read the appendix on Nuspeak and taken it as a how-to manual rather than a warning.

Change the language, and you take away the ability to even discuss a aconcept, let alone argue against it.

One very clear example of how that is now used was of course on here today "Thay male is a woman, so completely entitled to use the women's changing room."

Same. I am athletic and visibly muscular and it has never put off men. On the other hand I do have to confess that it was when associating with other muscular women that I first realised I was also attracted to women. Something about a woman with a well defined deltoid can drive me crazy. Perhaps @BootsAndRoots would just consider me straight for being into muscular women.