Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

Just adding this: "Woman Assaulted At Pride March For Saying Men Can't Be Lesbians"
reduxx.info/woman-assaulted-at-pride-march-for-saying-men-cant-be-lesbians/

What the motivation behind this post? An enjoyment of debate for debate's sake?

I think it's the thing that some particularly toxic men do when women say no to them... they start arguing and trying to find flaws in whatever reasons the woman gave them, if she was foolish enough to give them a reason. They often appear to believe that if they win the argument they've overcome the "no."

What the motivation behind this post? An enjoyment of debate for debate's sake? Or an annoyance that women can choose to sleep with who they want and call that what they like (which excludes males).

I agree with pp that those who don’t meet the criteria of a given group such as female homosexual can’t just decide they are going to say they are and it’s rude/hurtful/literal violence to disagree with them. It’s so ridiculously Pomo, this “I identify as…and therefore I am.’

Its narcissistic bollocks dressed up as social progression.

And of course, even if lesbians conceded the word lesbian to those who ‘identify’ as it but don’t meet the definition we currently use and female homosexuals then decided their new name was something else then you would then have transwomen identifying as that new word.

Because it’s not about individuals having a right to self identify. It’s about TW being validated as women and there is no way they can let women have something that doesn’t include them.

Blimey @aseriesofstillimages Rather than accepting that questions of sex, gender and sexuality are complex and that language and identity categories in this area often don’t have a single, universally agree definition'

Most people are quite happy with male/female (yes, including all people with DSDs, don't other them by pretending they're a 'third sex') and opposite sex attracted/same sex attracted/bisexual categories.

You know, the reality-based categories, not some weird made up gender identities that seem to multiply by the day. Not many people actually believe in this rubbish.

Stop pretending it's all so 'very complicated', when it's really not.

And if you don't eat it they may report you for a hate crime, and you should learn to overcome your meat based prejudices and learn to cope with eating it.

Pointing out that you really don't want to, it's your body, you have very strong feelings about this and a right to choose for yourself, and wtf is this abusive behaviour all about will just result in screams of abuse.

The only reason people would point it out is if a bisexual woman's (or a bi/heterosexual male's) perception of themselves as a lesbian encroached on things actual lesbians needed for themselves, or it was becoming damaging to actual lesbians to have people who clearly either weren't female or exclusively same sex attracted using the word about themselves. See the vegan analogy.

Thank you. This is exactly me but I couldn't find a way of saying it that sounded nice enough 😊

Well, I wouldn't walk up to her and say 'You're not a lesbian': not my place to do. But ...... I don't think that she's a lesbian

Same here.

Well, I wouldn't walk up to her and say 'You're not a lesbian': not my place to do. But ...... I don't think that she's a lesbian.

This is a bit of a side issue in a way, but it comes up a lot. And too often it goes unchallenged. About 'identity' .

aseriesofstillimages:
"Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity,"

Such problems are mostly illusory. In many cases it is clear we ought to correct people's "understanding of their own identity" - of their understanding of themselves and their own characteristics and personality.

Suppose a student think she is very clever and doesn't need to try very hard. She "understands her own identity" to be that of someone who gets 10/10 on any test. Do I, as her teacher, "presume" to give her the grade she gets on the test, 1/10, or should I accept her own understanding of herself as super intelligent and allocate her 10/10 in any case?

Or suppose I meet a young man at a party who thinks he's god's gift to all and sundry, and thereby identifies as a suitable partner for whomsoever he chooses. Should I "presume" to correct his understanding of his own identity (as an irresistible lothario) and tell him to piss off when he comes on to me, or should I just sleep with him so he can maintain his own understanding of his own identity?

Or imagine someone who thinks himself born to rule over others. His understanding of his own identity is as a kind of "world king": he thinks everyone should always do exactly as he says. Should we perhaps "presume" to correct his understanding of his own identity and restrain him for his own and our benefit, or should we go along with his own understanding of his own identity and kowtow?

Is a man's (mistaken) "understanding of his own identity" as a woman relevantly different from such cases? How, if so?

I have a bit of an issue with the original post in that "Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity" the poster then seems to go on to question lesbian's sexual identity. It feels deeply hypocritical to me.
Past that there is more to attraction than initial physical attraction. It is possible to find someone attractive, but for that physical attraction not to be enough to overcome an ingrained deeply rooted preference.
If two consenting adults are happy with each other, great enjoy yourselves! No adult should feel pressured or be criticized for what they look for in another adult partner. It's no one else's business. To each their own.

though it’s not like any of us are in a position to unilaterally define the term

Does this ambiguity apply to other words op?

How does society function without clarity over shared definitions?

So your vegan eats meat basically, and veganism now means pretty much nothing, but actual vegans shouldn't argue because be kind and the meat eating vegan really likes using the words they like and couldn't give a stuff about the impact on others.

Yes and to continue the analogy, you are asked to dinner and they say they know you are vegan, but when you get there they give you a bacon sandwich and say that they assumed you would eat it as some vegans do.

What would "primarily" mean? 95%? 60%?

I think it means a woman who is primarily or exclusively attracted to other women.

Nope - just exclusively attracted.

Just quickly on what I think the definition of lesbian is, or should be (though it’s not like any of us are in a position to unilaterally define the term)

The term is already defined and is enshrined in Statute. Neither you nor anyone else gets to redefine it or use it to mean what you want it to mean or think it should mean.

Leave lesbians alone, leave their definition alone, put your homophobia away.

So your vegan eats meat basically, and veganism now means pretty much nothing, but actual vegans shouldn't argue because be kind and the meat eating vegan really likes using the words they like and couldn't give a stuff about the impact on others.

No. No thank you.

@aseriesofstillimages Isn’t everyone here trying to define the theoretical edge cases and then force their understanding onto everyone else?

No. You have fundamentally misunderstood what feminists want to achieve. You are confusing discussion about societal norms and public poilicy with specifically prescribing people's lives.

There are lots of lesbians who have had relationships with men or might get drunk and shag a bloke. Some lesbians might disagree and draw the line differently but their personal self-definition doesn't threaten women's rights.

The problem is that if you redfine the word lesbian altogether (you didn't answer about what you want the new definition to be) then that has huge ramifications for the ability of the group that used to be called Lesbians to argue for their rights.

The further general problem is that people are using the idea that men can be lesbians to argue that actual lesbians are transphobic for not wishing to sleep with men.

So the individual cases that get discussed are generally where a man is describing himself as a lesbian or someone is trying to argue that men have always been included in that definition.

-----------------------------

If you want more concrete example, look at this story on a 'transwoman' footballer in a junior women's league.

reduxx.info/irish-lgbtq-inclusive-football-team-with-transgender-player-wins-womens-junior-final/

This man is very upset that he can't shower with the girls and that some people don't even think he should play football on a women's team. In this case, yes, I am saying that he isn't a lesbian and isn't a woman but can you not see why the rights he wants as part of his self definition make it a public policy issue? If he just wanted to self define as a woman no-one would give a shit.

It's true that there isn't a word that specifically means women who are just attracted to women and transwomen. But most lesbians aren't so you can't just redefine "lesbian". Though if we were only talking about words maybe you could do what people do in other situations and attach asterisks - "she's lesbian (with asterisks)"

But it's not just words. There are other people involved - there's your friend, and her transwoman partner, and your friend's lesbian community. Does a lesbian community accepting your friend mean including her partner? You can see why that would be a sticking point. And that's nothing new. It does sometimes happen that lesbians find themselves attracted to men (not transwomen). And yes that's a shock and a change for anyone who's been well embedded in a lesbian identity and lesbian community. It means questioning a lot of things you've taken for granted about yourself and the people around you, maybe re identifying and a shift of community to one where you fit in better. And you can't always ask your own community to redefine itself just to fit you in. Many lesbians don't see transwomen as part of the lesbian community and that's not likely to change just to please your friend (and her partner).

You might ask yourself why it's so hard to think of your friend as bisexual? The bisexual community are one of the most open and accepting and least prone to restrictive self-definitions of any sexual identity community I've ever met. Unless things have very much changed recently your friend and her partner would both be welcomed. Perhaps you have some stereotypes or prejudices about bisexuality and bisexual people that you need to overcome?