Page 29 | Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

aseriesofstillimages · 2022-08-07T11:36:09+00:00

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian. Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 12/08/2022 00:38

OP do you think it would be a contentious statement to say hetrosexual people are "exclusively opposite sex attracted?" Or do you think you can be straight whilst having sex with someone who is the same sex as you?

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 00:33

QueenHippolyta · 11/08/2022 19:41

In my large university town lesbian social group (circa 2015) the only woman who openly dated a prominent transwoman was our open bisexual.

If a lesbian dated a transwoman then she'd be immediately categorized and downgraded as a bisexual., gods even the bisexual had a hard time! We were grossed out by the idea that she slept with men, talked about male partners....

As a wise lesbian told me when I first came out: "forget about bisexuals they're not worth the pain. "

this is the reality about lesbian social life, women may not be ejecting the transwomen from their social group, but they are quietly leaving and not dating them for sure. It's why young lesbians are the focal point....

I notice you're not replying to me because I'm telling everyone here the reality of my lived lesbian experience.

Sorry, it wasn’t personal, I haven’t been replying to most people. Your lesbian social group sounds pretty unpleasant, from the way you’ve described how they regard and treat bisexuals. I’m glad that has not generally been my experience.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 00:30

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 11/08/2022 22:04

people have given you some really well reasoned responses (not me, I just got cross with you)

you have not engaged with any of them

just saying 'I disagree, you're offensive' is hardly covering yourself with glory is it?

come on, you're really sure you're right. It should be a piece of piss to come up with a really convincing argument

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It’s hard to pick out the well reasoned responses from among the much larger number of entirely un-reasoned ones. If I didn’t have a day job and other things to be doing (and if I had a computer rather than a phone to type my messages on) I probably would take the time to go through and explain why I don’t agree with most of the arguments people have made. But on past experience, when I have tried to do that, people just shouted abuse and didn’t engage with what I’d said, so it feels like a bit of a pointless endeavour.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 00:24

VestofAbsurdity · 11/08/2022 19:58

It clearly is a matter of opinion though, at least as to where trans people fit in, given how many people disagree on this topic.

It not opinion it is fact, lesbians are same sex attracted, that definition is laid down in Statute and provides legal protections to lesbians - arbitrarily expanding that definition or subverting it undermines legal protections that lesbians have on the basis of their sexuality.

Trans people can fit in by finding another definition that describes them, another word, another 'concept' instead of trying to gate crash into one that belongs to others and is not appropriate to them.

I too wonder how lesbians stomach all this crap that is thrown at them, it's reprehensible.

I think that it was you who said before that ‘lesbian’ is defined in legislation, which is not true, as far as I’m aware. I assume you’re referring to the definition of sexual orientation in the Equality Act as “a person's sexual orientation towards—

(a) persons of the same sex,

(b) persons of the opposite sex, or

(c) persons of either sex”

That definition is clearly no basis for saying that a lesbian can’t be attracted to, or have a relationship with, a trans woman. First because a trans woman with a GRC would be legally a woman for this purpose, so a woman whose ‘sexual orientation’ was ‘towards’ both non-trans women, and trans women with GRCs, would be exclusively same sex attracted.

Second, because the main point of the provisions in the Equality Act about sexual orientation is to stop people being discriminated against because they are gay or bisexual or are perceived to be gay or bisexual (although it does equally protect straight people from discrimination) - it is not seeking to create definitive categories of sexuality.

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PeterPomegranate · 11/08/2022 23:30

TheWeeDonkey · 11/08/2022 19:43

I don't know how lesbians put up with this shit, I really don't.

Solidarity to my lesbian sisters.

Indeed. Same.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 11/08/2022 22:04

aseriesofstillimages · 11/08/2022 19:13

Lesbians who date trans women would consider it is you, not me, being offensive, or insensitive.

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people have given you some really well reasoned responses (not me, I just got cross with you)

you have not engaged with any of them

just saying 'I disagree, you're offensive' is hardly covering yourself with glory is it?

come on, you're really sure you're right. It should be a piece of piss to come up with a really convincing argument

munchiemarie · 11/08/2022 21:15

Changing peoples views?

I've come across this on Twitter so many times. Transwomen insisting that transwomen = women therefore lesbians should accept cock.

Which comes across extremely rapey.

TheBiologyStupid · 11/08/2022 20:33

I too wonder how lesbians stomach all this crap that is thrown at them, it's reprehensible.

Yup, homophobia and misogyny all in one. So much for respecting who you are.

Blister · 11/08/2022 20:27

aseriesofstillimages · 11/08/2022 19:12

It clearly is a matter of opinion though, at least as to where trans people fit in, given how many people disagree on this topic.

Show quote history

The only other group of people who have tried to convince me homosexuality had anything to do with opinions were staunchly Catholic.

I see we are back to "choosing to be gay".

There are two sets of genitals.
And three combinations of said genitals.
Call it minimising. Call it whatever you like.

Facts don't pander to opinions.

VestofAbsurdity · 11/08/2022 19:58

It clearly is a matter of opinion though, at least as to where trans people fit in, given how many people disagree on this topic.

It not opinion it is fact, lesbians are same sex attracted, that definition is laid down in Statute and provides legal protections to lesbians - arbitrarily expanding that definition or subverting it undermines legal protections that lesbians have on the basis of their sexuality.

Trans people can fit in by finding another definition that describes them, another word, another 'concept' instead of trying to gate crash into one that belongs to others and is not appropriate to them.

I too wonder how lesbians stomach all this crap that is thrown at them, it's reprehensible.

TheWeeDonkey · 11/08/2022 19:43

I don't know how lesbians put up with this shit, I really don't.

Solidarity to my lesbian sisters.

QueenHippolyta · 11/08/2022 19:41

In my large university town lesbian social group (circa 2015) the only woman who openly dated a prominent transwoman was our open bisexual.

If a lesbian dated a transwoman then she'd be immediately categorized and downgraded as a bisexual., gods even the bisexual had a hard time! We were grossed out by the idea that she slept with men, talked about male partners....

As a wise lesbian told me when I first came out: "forget about bisexuals they're not worth the pain. "

this is the reality about lesbian social life, women may not be ejecting the transwomen from their social group, but they are quietly leaving and not dating them for sure. It's why young lesbians are the focal point....

I notice you're not replying to me because I'm telling everyone here the reality of my lived lesbian experience.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 11/08/2022 19:33

@aseriesofstillimages wanting to redefine something to suit your situation is understandable as a desire, but you can't insist that your view of reality be changed for every other person in the world and change the meaning of words.

Let's work it through using a different example.

I am fat, it's a fact, I'm obese, wear size 22 clothing.

In my head I am slim, photos always take me by surprise because my mental image of myself does not look like what the cameras see.

I very much dislike the fact that I am categorised as plus size and that I do not fit into the healthy BMI range. I find it uncomfortable when my Dr mentions weight as I do not see myself as obese and don't think that the physical reality of my weight should be mentioned.

I will now declare myself and everyone else who is obese but doesn't self identify as obese to be healthy and slim.

Plus size will be redefined to start at size 24 and my weight and height is Within the 'healthy' BMI range. Everyone should accept this and redefine themselves based on my self image

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 11/08/2022 19:15

It's like when people wang on about 'bi dykes'.
Nothing to so with trans identity etc.
But insensitive to lesbians who see the term dyke as culturally important and having a specific meaning.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 11/08/2022 19:14

See, that's what I mean.
They aren't lesbians.
I'm rubber, you're glue isn't really the kind of engagement I come on to MN for tbh.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 11/08/2022 19:13

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 11/08/2022 19:11

If it's a voice of someone who can explain their POV well, sure

Just woolying on about lesbians who go out with male people is a bit... offensive? Contrarian and insensitive anyway

Lesbians who date trans women would consider it is you, not me, being offensive, or insensitive.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 11/08/2022 19:12

TheWeeDonkey · 11/08/2022 19:10

Sexuality is not a matter of opinion. You seem to be really confused by that.

Homosexuality - same sex attracted
Heterosexuality - opposite sex attracted
Bisexuality- attracted to both sexes

HTH

It clearly is a matter of opinion though, at least as to where trans people fit in, given how many people disagree on this topic.

OP posts:

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 11/08/2022 19:11

If it's a voice of someone who can explain their POV well, sure

Just woolying on about lesbians who go out with male people is a bit... offensive? Contrarian and insensitive anyway

TheWeeDonkey · 11/08/2022 19:10

Sexuality is not a matter of opinion. You seem to be really confused by that.

Homosexuality - same sex attracted
Heterosexuality - opposite sex attracted
Bisexuality- attracted to both sexes

HTH

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 11/08/2022 19:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2022 15:02

She'll pop up again, she's been on a few threads, and seems to ask similar questions, so it's a little surprising that she hasn't yet grasped what it actually is that we do think about sex and gender identity.

There are certainly many people here who I recognise i don’t hold the faintest hope of shifting their views one iota. Chances are I won’t change anyone’s views. But occasionally someone says they appreciate my coming and putting my views in a polite and thoughtful manner. Surely it’s healthy to have a voice or in this place that doesn’t agree?

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Jollygreen · 11/08/2022 19:00

But I really struggle with why GC people would want to tell a woman - a lesbian - who is in a relationship with a trans woman that they are wrong to consider themselves a lesbian.

But the definition of lesbian is women in a same sex relationship. If one of them is male then they're not a lesbian.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 11/08/2022 18:57

PermanentTemporary · 11/08/2022 14:59

Of course she hasn't, she's gone off to say what a bunch of far right irreconcilable extremists we are. No doubt she came with hope in her heart that we'd suddenly see the light and understand... that women aren't female. But I'm never going to understand that because it's not true.

It's all so weird I still can't really understand how we got here.

Nope, I’ve been coming back periodically to read and think about the responses, and whether there was anything further I could say that would be worth the effort of typing.

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334bu · 11/08/2022 18:49

Would he, if single, have a sexual relationship with a male person who identifies as female?

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 11/08/2022 16:00

Franca123 · 11/08/2022 15:23

Yeah, I totally get that. Im certain I could never fancy a man who wanted to be a woman. My husband is hardly a man's man. But the idea of a man wanting to be a woman is a huuugggge turn off. I'm assuming this is bigoted to admit?!!!!! The idea that a woman might say no to a man will probably get this post deleted. 🤐

I agree.

I hold my hands up that I am Gender Critical, I'm sure there's a whole host of people who would call me a TERF. My husband on the other hand is very very liberal and 'nice' he wants to be kind to everyone and accept that what they say they are is what they are, he thinks my concerns about the erosion of womens rights, Lesbian and Gay rights and safeguarding for children are over reactions. We've had many talks and it's one of the few areas I'm not sure we will ever agree.

I was very clear when I told him that I am attracted to Men, I am not a Lesbian and could never be in a marriage with him if he ever decided to transition. That that would be hard line for me. I see women as attractive, I love my female friends but I am not sexually attracted to women and even less so for men identifying as women.

He still says that TWAW so a transwoman attracted to women is a Lesbian, I explain that my view is that they are heterosexual, he disagrees and we end up in a 3 Hr heated debate that twists in every direction.

Franca123 · 11/08/2022 15:23

Yeah, I totally get that. Im certain I could never fancy a man who wanted to be a woman. My husband is hardly a man's man. But the idea of a man wanting to be a woman is a huuugggge turn off. I'm assuming this is bigoted to admit?!!!!! The idea that a woman might say no to a man will probably get this post deleted. 🤐