Page 28 | Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 08:39

Or as you seem to want to interpret it: your definition does not fit my friend's image of herself, please change it.

This is it. Lesbian means a woman who is exclusively same sex attracted. Bisexual means a person of either sex attracted to both sexes. I don't consider bisexual women to be lesbians. Whatever they call themselves is up to them, but where it matters, they should have some respect for lesbians (and other women in general) and not do things like try to insert their male partners into female only spaces.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 08:35

so it is clear that where the Equality Act refers to ‘sex’, if a trans woman has a GRC, their sex is female, and if a trans man has a GRC, their sex is male.

No, because exemptions can be applied to them on the grounds of their sex, based on either the Gender Recognition Act or the Equality Act. So their legal position is subtly different from that of a biological female.

PermanentTemporary · 12/08/2022 08:33

The gamete definition is the definition of sex. This is not a GC view, that's what sex is.

The gamete definition leaves out that there are consequences to sex. In this case I don't mean social consequences, but physiological. Sex is a Iifelong developmental pathway, with predictable parameters you can describe with over 99% confidence based on a single glance at a newborn baby's genitals. It is that strong, that absolute. So much so that there are people who are only sexually attracted to people on one of those pathways and not to anyone on the other pathway.

It is possible to be very close in appearance to the other pathway, especially with cosmetic surgery and hormones, and the gender assumptions attached to those pathways mean you can live a gendered life that matches the other pathway and look even more like one of them. There are grey areas here given the history of violence and sexual exploitation of people on the male pathway to the female purely because they are female, or to male people who are feminine, but in general restrictions on gender expression are sexist.

Why try and persuade anyone that you are actually on the other pathway though? Why bother? True trans liberation would surely be to stop GRCs and passing and all that 50s nonsense and just be who you are. To look at a listing for a lesbian bar and say, oh well, that's not me.

NecessaryScene · 12/08/2022 06:46

Wowsers. There would be an field-shattering paper for any sexologist who managed to finding someone who fits the description above:

a woman whose ‘sexual orientation’ was ‘towards’ both non-trans women, and trans women with GRCs

An orientation based on a piece of paper from the government?

A whole new use for the GRC we hadn't considered - making yourself more attractive to women!

And what's the mechanism? Does the GRC holder have to reveal the GRC to get this response? Do they have to be holding it at the time?

So many questions...

PermanentTemporary · 12/08/2022 06:44

Tbh 'queer' seems to be playing that role now. I don't have skin in the game except being around when it was initially being reclaimed, but I know that a lot of people find it offensive. However, it does suggest to me that a lot of people are genuinely not wanting to try and change the meaning of lesbian and are trying to find new vocabulary.

Namerchangerextraordinaire · 12/08/2022 05:29

OP, you don't get to redefine a word just because it doesn't suit you to use the accurate & long established meaning that you yourself used to also acknowledge.

The overwhelming majority of the world understands the word lesbian to refer to a biological woman who is only attracted to other biological women.

Just like in Mean Girls, when they try to make 'fetch' a thing, trying to make the word lesbian include anyone who is biologically male is not ever going to happen & makes anyone attempting to use it that way sound as lame as those girls did.

Get your own words to define men who dress as women & fancy women, or women who fancy men who dress as women if you need to make it sound more special than it is.

He is a heterosexual male, she is a bisexual female.
If they want to 'live as their authentic selves', then that is what they are.

Leave lesbians out of it, as they can't be either of the people in that relationship.

BadNomad · 12/08/2022 02:46

Your friend is in a relationship with a feminine-looking male. Her partner isn't any less male because they present a female appearance to the world. Just like how "butch" lesbians aren't any less female or lesbian just because they're not stereotypically female-looking. Your friend can call herself a lesbian if she wants, but she's still in a heterosexual relationship.

Blister · 12/08/2022 02:10

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:55

Well yes, but why do you think I have a ‘swanky’ mental image of myself, or that it depends in any way on my beliefs about how people define what a lesbian is?

Show quote history

This was your opening question correct?

"If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?"

In other words, why should my friend need to change her mental image of herself even if her situation has changed, with or without her knowledge? (just glossing over how creepy the never knowing bit is...)
Or as you seem to want to interpret it: your definition does not fit my friend's image of herself, please change it.

Lesbianism hasn't changed. You and especially your friend have.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:55

Blister · 12/08/2022 01:52

swanky
[ˈswaŋki]
ADJECTIVE
informal
stylishly luxurious and expensive:
"directors with swanky company cars"
synonyms:
luxurious · luxury · deluxe · plush · sumptuous · [More]
using one's wealth, knowledge, or achievements to try to impress others.
synonyms:
bragging · crowing · swaggering · [More]

Show quote history

Well yes, but why do you think I have a ‘swanky’ mental image of myself, or that it depends in any way on my beliefs about how people define what a lesbian is?

OP posts:

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:53

Blabble · 12/08/2022 01:48

This is an interesting position to take, because to me the most obvious correlation is not weight or age, but rather race. Do you believe one can be transracial? Rachel Dolezal passed for years…

Show quote history

That is a very interesting example, and having watched the documentary about her, I had a lot more sympathy for her position - she seemed to be mostly motivated by a desire to distance herself from her abusive family, and to feel closer to her black children (although ultimately she did seem a bit unhinged). I’m not aware of any other real world examples like hers.

OP posts:

Blister · 12/08/2022 01:52

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:44

‘Swanky’?? What on earth do you mean?

Show quote history

swanky
[ˈswaŋki]
ADJECTIVE
informal
stylishly luxurious and expensive:
"directors with swanky company cars"
synonyms:
luxurious · luxury · deluxe · plush · sumptuous · [More]
using one's wealth, knowledge, or achievements to try to impress others.
synonyms:
bragging · crowing · swaggering · [More]

Blabble · 12/08/2022 01:48

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 00:51

I don’t need to redefine anything to suit my situation, given I’m bisexual, and anyway my partner is a cis gender woman, but I assume you mean ‘you’ more broadly in reference to lesbians who date trans women.

your example is very similar to ones I’ve seen other people giving in relation to a range of characteristics, such as age. I’ve been trying to work out why I think sex/gender is different. I think it stems from the fact that it is possible for trans men and women to ‘pass’ to a greater or lesser extent. Gender critical people tend to define sex as being essentially about whether you are the type of human that produces small or large gametes. But that’s not what we see when we look at a person and perceive them to be a particular sex/gender - we perceive things like their body and face shape, the pitch of their voice, their mannerisms. And while these things are significantly correlated with whether one is the type of person who produces large or small gametes, they are clearly not 100% aligned with that - and particularly not when you bring in the possibility of surgery and hormone treatment.

I realise the response will be - but many trans people don’t pass. And while I don’t believe that the acceptance of a person in their acquired gender should depend on their ability to pass (which is to a large extent a matter of luck), the fact that I think some trans people do pass does affect my views on this whole issue.

I don’t think it’s possible for a person who weighs 20 stone to give the impression to anyone in person that they weight 10 stone. It is possible for a person who is of the category of people who usually produce large gametes to appear to another person to be a man.

Show quote history

This is an interesting position to take, because to me the most obvious correlation is not weight or age, but rather race. Do you believe one can be transracial? Rachel Dolezal passed for years…

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:44

Blister · 12/08/2022 01:41

@aseriesofstillimages
No one is questioning your friend's sexuality or yours for that matter. Shag whoever you like.
You don't get to dictate to other lesbians that males are part of their sexual world.

Have you ever considered that it might be you and your friend finding accepting change difficult? Your situations have changed but you want to keep your swanky mental image of yourselves. You don't seem to mind killing the very thing that makes that mental image swanky in order to hold onto it.
If your mental positive feedback loop deteriorates when confronted with the truth, it isn't the truth which needs to change. You need to grow a healthier relationship between change and your mental image of yourself.

‘Swanky’?? What on earth do you mean?

OP posts:

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:43

VestofAbsurdity · 12/08/2022 01:36

First because a trans woman with a GRC would be legally a woman for this purpose, so a woman whose ‘sexual orientation’ was ‘towards’ both non-trans women, and trans women with GRCs, would be exclusively same sex attracted.

No, because (1) it is a Gender Recognition Certificate not a sex recognition certificate and (2) as clarified by the Attorney General it is a legal fiction biological sex has not changed, therefore as far as sexual orientation goes it is based on biological sex which is unchangeable.

The Equality Act does create definitive categories of sexual orientation based on biological sex and protects them.

The GRA actually provides that:

“Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).”

so it is clear that where the Equality Act refers to ‘sex’, if a trans woman has a GRC, their sex is female, and if a trans man has a GRC, their sex is male.

Rishi Sunak has talked recently about changing this by amending the Equality Act, but as we stand currently, this is the law.

OP posts:

Blister · 12/08/2022 01:41

@aseriesofstillimages
No one is questioning your friend's sexuality or yours for that matter. Shag whoever you like.
You don't get to dictate to other lesbians that males are part of their sexual world.

Have you ever considered that it might be you and your friend finding accepting change difficult? Your situations have changed but you want to keep your swanky mental image of yourselves. You don't seem to mind killing the very thing that makes that mental image swanky in order to hold onto it.
If your mental positive feedback loop deteriorates when confronted with the truth, it isn't the truth which needs to change. You need to grow a healthier relationship between change and your mental image of yourself.

VestofAbsurdity · 12/08/2022 01:36

First because a trans woman with a GRC would be legally a woman for this purpose, so a woman whose ‘sexual orientation’ was ‘towards’ both non-trans women, and trans women with GRCs, would be exclusively same sex attracted.

No, because (1) it is a Gender Recognition Certificate not a sex recognition certificate and (2) as clarified by the Attorney General it is a legal fiction biological sex has not changed, therefore as far as sexual orientation goes it is based on biological sex which is unchangeable.

The Equality Act does create definitive categories of sexual orientation based on biological sex and protects them.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:33

This is a very interesting article on the invention of heterosexuality
www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexuality

OP posts:

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:07

stevalnamechanger · 12/08/2022 00:46

THANK YOU!

Show quote history

I suppose my fundamental point is that, while clearly people disagree as to whether trans women are women, and trans men are men, when it comes to a person’s understanding of their own sexuality, it should be accepted that it is their views on sex/gender - rather than other people’s - that are determinative.

So if a gay man considers trans men to be men, and he has a relationship with a trans man, and still considers himself to be gay, he’s correct. If a gay man doesn’t consider trans men to be men, yet unexpectedly finds himself attracted to a trans man and as a result comes to the conclusion he is in fact bisexual - he is also right.

OP posts:

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:01

WandaWomblesaurus · 12/08/2022 00:38

No one really cares whether you agree or not. There are plenty of lesbians saying no.
Why is it difficult for you to understand why they are saying no.
Do you think they should change their minds and agree with you?

I think everyone, regardless of their own sex, gender or sexuality, should accept that when a lesbian continues to consider herself a lesbian after having been attracted to or had a relationship with a trans woman, they should accept that that is her validly held belief about her own sexuality, and she knows better than them.

OP posts:

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 00:57

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 12/08/2022 00:38

OP do you think it would be a contentious statement to say hetrosexual people are "exclusively opposite sex attracted?" Or do you think you can be straight whilst having sex with someone who is the same sex as you?

the views I’ve expressed in relation to lesbians apply equally to gay men and straight people. If a straight man falls for a trans woman who he perceives as female, and he continues to identify as straight, I wouldn’t think he was incorrect.

Going even further, there are significant numbers of men who consider themselves straight even though they sometimes have sex with other men. People have a wide variety of ways of understanding sexuality - some people think it’s all about who you want to bump genitals with, others think it’s about who you want to have romantic and sexual relationships with.

I saw a documentary about trans men who were body builders, and one of them had for many years lived as a lesbian and had a lesbian partner. When the trans man started to transition, his partner explained how challenging she found it, having always been a lesbian (and that having been an important part of her identity), that she was now going to be in a heterosexual relationship.

OP posts:

WandaWomblesaurus · 12/08/2022 00:52

Hmmm women who are exclusively attracted to other women.
There used to be a word for that. What was it? Lembas? Librarian? Lumos? Lesothosaurus?

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 00:51

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 11/08/2022 19:33

@aseriesofstillimages wanting to redefine something to suit your situation is understandable as a desire, but you can't insist that your view of reality be changed for every other person in the world and change the meaning of words.

Let's work it through using a different example.

I am fat, it's a fact, I'm obese, wear size 22 clothing.

In my head I am slim, photos always take me by surprise because my mental image of myself does not look like what the cameras see.

I very much dislike the fact that I am categorised as plus size and that I do not fit into the healthy BMI range. I find it uncomfortable when my Dr mentions weight as I do not see myself as obese and don't think that the physical reality of my weight should be mentioned.

I will now declare myself and everyone else who is obese but doesn't self identify as obese to be healthy and slim.

Plus size will be redefined to start at size 24 and my weight and height is Within the 'healthy' BMI range. Everyone should accept this and redefine themselves based on my self image

I don’t need to redefine anything to suit my situation, given I’m bisexual, and anyway my partner is a cis gender woman, but I assume you mean ‘you’ more broadly in reference to lesbians who date trans women.

your example is very similar to ones I’ve seen other people giving in relation to a range of characteristics, such as age. I’ve been trying to work out why I think sex/gender is different. I think it stems from the fact that it is possible for trans men and women to ‘pass’ to a greater or lesser extent. Gender critical people tend to define sex as being essentially about whether you are the type of human that produces small or large gametes. But that’s not what we see when we look at a person and perceive them to be a particular sex/gender - we perceive things like their body and face shape, the pitch of their voice, their mannerisms. And while these things are significantly correlated with whether one is the type of person who produces large or small gametes, they are clearly not 100% aligned with that - and particularly not when you bring in the possibility of surgery and hormone treatment.

I realise the response will be - but many trans people don’t pass. And while I don’t believe that the acceptance of a person in their acquired gender should depend on their ability to pass (which is to a large extent a matter of luck), the fact that I think some trans people do pass does affect my views on this whole issue.

I don’t think it’s possible for a person who weighs 20 stone to give the impression to anyone in person that they weight 10 stone. It is possible for a person who is of the category of people who usually produce large gametes to appear to another person to be a man.

OP posts:

stevalnamechanger · 12/08/2022 00:46

donquixotedelamancha · 07/08/2022 13:01

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

What does it mean if it doesn't mean that? @aseriesofstillimages

I don't know anyone (apart from you) who is interested in defining the theoretical edge cases of homosexuality and then forcing them onto everyone else.

But if Lesbian doesn't mean female homosexual, what is the point of the word?

Isn't it useful to have a word for lesbians? Why do we need to get rid of it?

THANK YOU!

stevalnamechanger · 12/08/2022 00:44

Does it matter ?

WandaWomblesaurus · 12/08/2022 00:38

No one really cares whether you agree or not. There are plenty of lesbians saying no.
Why is it difficult for you to understand why they are saying no.
Do you think they should change their minds and agree with you?