Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

I might keep a folder of some of the preposterous blog posts and articles that @aseriesofstillimages has posted in various threads which she feels back up her genderist views.

Yes. The buggery act, outlawing anal sex was passed in 1533

implies that people were quite well aware of homosexuality prior to 1868, no?

I don’t think anyone of white / western appearance would come close to passing for me. If someone was from a group with which I was far less familiar, and had had extensive surgery, training in how to walk, stand etc, then it’s perhaps possible, but I think unlikely.

Once they undressed though, zero possibility.

guess this is saying that there were people who were exclusively same sex attracted, but they didn't adopt it as an identity and were therefore not homosexual, despite, yanno, shagging people of the same sex.

And having not to speak about it, otherwise they risked criminal punishment including execution, as well as being completely shamed for it. It's an absurd view.

I realise the response will be - but many trans people don’t pass. And while I don’t believe that the acceptance of a person in their acquired gender should depend on their ability to pass (which is to a large extent a matter of luck), the fact that I think some trans people do pass does affect my views on this whole issue.

I think a vanishingly small number of males who identify as women "pass". I can't understand anyone seeing most of them as female, and I frankly don't believe they do, whatever they say.

Wasn't that space wonderful? I mourn the loss with you, QueenHippolyta..

heavens, do you really find this persuasive? Step away from the queer theory lady, that stuff'll rot your brain.

“Prior to 1868, there were no heterosexuals,” writes Blank. Neither were there homosexuals. It hadn’t yet occurred to humans that they might be “differentiated from one another by the kinds of love or sexual desire they experienced.”

I guess this is saying that there were people who were exclusively same sex attracted, but they didn't adopt it as an identity and were therefore not homosexual, despite, yanno, shagging people of the same sex.

Does it seem likely that Sappho, Alexander the Great, Philip of Anjou, did not understand that their sexuality was different to the majority of their peers, and that this did not affect their sense of identity?

@QueenHippolyta I’m so so sorry.

As a straight woman, I know what it is to be graciously accepted into women-only, predominantly lesbian spaces. I am always a bit hesitant to go into gay spaces (male or female) generally, because it is not my world, and let’s face it, I have the rest of the world where I’m not “othered.”

I’m watching the case in Tasmania with interest. When I lived in Australia, Tasmania was the most redneck homophobic state of all the states. Funny how when straight men want to change that …

the fact that I think some trans people do pass does affect my views on this whole issue.

let’s say you are correct and some trans people do pass 100%. Would you concede that a woman who is dating a TW who is clearly male and doesn’t pass at all, is not a lesbian? Even if she labels herself that way?

(If not, I don’t see the relevance of “some trans people pass.”)

it's unusual for people who believe gender is more important than sex to provide any reasoning, so this is refreshing, thank you.

Gender critical people tend to define sex as being essentially about whether you are the type of human that produces small or large gametes

while that's not the only thing that governs attraction, it's a big part of it. I have always been very sure that I wanted children. As a heterosexual woman I had a reasonable expectation that I would bear my partner's children and share their care with him. As a heterosexual man he had the expectation that his partner would bear his children yadda yadda. While I understand that isn't the way it pans out for every heterosexual couple, I would never have selected a partner where that future was a complete impossibility due to the kind of body they had.

also without going into too much detail, I enjoy PIV sex. I would not select a partner who couldn't do that. (yes yes, sex toys, fingers blah blah. not the same)

a woman who has taken hormones and had radical cosmetic surgery, spent her life learning to talk about herself and sit on the train with her legs spread will still never be able to impregnate another woman.

your reasoning seems to be that what people look like is more important than what they are . it seems peculiarly superficial.

Ladies don't buy the trope about 'being fooled' this is my real life experience:

Around 2010, I arrange for a coffee with a nice lesbian whose profile I liked in OkCupid.
I go to the coffee place and my date is clearly male, 6foot, broad, with long hair and a dress. I freeze. I want to run far far away.

BUT this person knows my real name, can easily find my listed address
And I am 5ft 2inches (157cm) , and 7stone/100lbs.
Yes, I have been sexually assaulted by males (but ran away in time...)

I have coffee, smile and talk. Even accept a lift back to the uni library. Agree to even meet up in the future.
Because I am afraid to say no.

Lesbian groups used to be an all-female paradise. Even someone's straight female friend would join us on occasion, welcomed for the sisterhood.

It's all gone.
No more lesbian clubs, no more wonderful female-only groups where we were free to be ourselves; fearless, safe, happy.

Why is this the only psychological condition that we should “accept”? Many people are uncomfortable with some fact it other about themselves, and believe that they would be happier were they different. Others go further and believe that their body isn’t what it really is. Anorexics who are thin but believe that they are obese, for example.

We don’t play along with these, so what’s different with a man who’d like to be a woman or believes themselves to be one, or a straight woman who believes that she is a lesbian?

@aseriesofstillimages '
'I think everyone, regardless of their own sex, gender or sexuality, should accept that when a lesbian continues to consider herself a lesbian after having been attracted to or had a relationship with a trans woman, they should accept that that is her validly held belief about her own sexuality, and she knows better than them.'

What else does this apply to?

Should we accept that people know their own ethnicity best and believe a pasty ginger guy who says he is black?

Should people have just been kind to Boris Johnson and accepted that those gatherings he had didn't identify as parties?

Why can we not disagree about this one thing when everything else in life relies on agreed definitions which are enforced by debating those who make false claims?

@aseriesofstillimages '
'I think everyone, regardless of their own sex, gender or sexuality, should accept that when a lesbian continues to consider herself a lesbian after having been attracted to or had a relationship with a trans woman, they should accept that that is her validly held belief about her own sexuality, and she knows better than them.'

Why? I can happily disagree with her, to her face - there is no law prohibiting my free speech in personal capacity and I think she's deluded.

Under the Equality Act you are protected from discrimination:
• when you are in the workplace
• when you use public services like healthcare (for example, visiting your doctor or local hospital) or education (for example, at your school or college)
• when you use businesses and other organisations that provide services and goods (like shops, restaurants, and cinemas)
• when you use transport
• when you join a club or association (for example, your local tennis club)
• when you have contact with public bodies like your local council or government departments

There is no obligation on me as a private individual to agree with your friend's opinion that a relationship that can result in a natural pregnancy can ever be described as a lesbian relationship. That is insane, and I am not obligated to agree with it.

I still can't get over the blatant homophobia of trying to downgrade the factual reality of exclusive same-sex attraction to a 'concept' that is open to debate.

No doubt op believes 'it never happens'.
Is Eddie Izzard a lesbian when in girl mode op?

This shows the problem and why it is so difficult to back track on this issue for the gov. Like Emily Thornbury and Penny Mordant, the OP is blinded by one friend and is now willing to throw all other women / lesbians rights away to make her friends feel right in her identity as a lesbian even though she is dating a male.

Did you even read the analogy about vegans? Would you think it was sensible to eat meat, regularly, and then tell people that, to you, that’s what a vegan is, and that no-one shoujd disagree with you?

Being vegan is much more of a choice than being gay. It's entirely a social construct. I don't see why vegans can't be kind and accept transvegans as vegans.

I can imagine a whole world where everyone is vegan, including those who eat meat.

That would be great: all the problems of animal cruelty and global warming will be solved; your local steakhouse will have loads of vegan options.

They aren’t lesbians. They are straight women or bisexual.

How can you still be confused by this?

And that there can't be a word for actual vegans, because that's invalidating to people who think of themselves as vegans but eat meat.

Did you even read the analogy about vegans? Would you think it was sensible to eat meat, regularly, and then tell people that, to you, that’s what a vegan is, and that no-one shoujd disagree with you?

However, it does suggest to me that a lot of people are genuinely not wanting to try and change the meaning of lesbian and are trying to find new vocabulary.

IME most of these women are comfortable calling themselves "queer women", it's males who identify as women and their bisexual female partners who want to change the meaning of the word "lesbian" to include them.

It must be the forbidden, taboo nature of it. You aren’t allowed to ask to see the GRC, despite the uncontrollable lust it apparently excites in you. You can’t even ask if it exists. A permanent state of teasing and temptation.

But if Lesbian doesn't mean female homosexual, what is the point of the word?

Isn't it useful to have a word for lesbians? Why do we need to get rid of it?

This is the key for me. Find another word, rather than appropriate one which already has a coherent meaning to push your ideological agenda.