Page 26 | Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 22:36

A GRC does not change a persons legal sex for all purposes. What gave you that idea?
Are you claiming that lesbians must include trans people with a GRC in their dating pool? If so, this thread has become an example of the cotton ceiling.

ImWell · 12/08/2022 22:32

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:20

No, the Gender Recognition Act says that - see my earlier quote from the Act

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No, it doesn’t. Your quote does not say that.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:31

DarkDayforMN · 12/08/2022 10:46

the fact that I think some trans people do pass does affect my views on this whole issue.

let’s say you are correct and some trans people do pass 100%. Would you concede that a woman who is dating a TW who is clearly male and doesn’t pass at all, is not a lesbian? Even if she labels herself that way?

(If not, I don’t see the relevance of “some trans people pass.”)

to be honest, if a person said they were a trans woman but had taken no steps at all to transition - whether medically or socially - I would internally question what it means for them to be a woman, or trans. And if a woman who said they were a lesbian was in a relationship with that person, I would internally question what it means for them to be a lesbian.

in order for categories of sexuality to mean anything, they have to have something to do with observable aspects of sex or gender.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:20

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 12/08/2022 22:18

@aseriesofstillimages "I don’t remember ever thinking that lesbians weren’t allowed to be attracted to trans women."

You seem to be missing the point.

No one is saying that Lesbians are not allowed to be attracted to Transwomen. Everyone is allowed to be attracted to anyone.

But it is not a lesbian relationship, you could describe it as a same gender relationship but it is not a same sex relationship.

The Equality Act doesn't say that if you go through Gender Re-assignment then you are the other sex by the way.

No, the Gender Recognition Act says that - see my earlier quote from the Act

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:19

DarkDayforMN · 12/08/2022 08:57

It must be the forbidden, taboo nature of it. You aren’t allowed to ask to see the GRC, despite the uncontrollable lust it apparently excites in you. You can’t even ask if it exists. A permanent state of teasing and temptation.

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😂

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FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 12/08/2022 22:18

@aseriesofstillimages "I don’t remember ever thinking that lesbians weren’t allowed to be attracted to trans women."

You seem to be missing the point.

No one is saying that Lesbians are not allowed to be attracted to Transwomen. Everyone is allowed to be attracted to anyone.

But it is not a lesbian relationship, you could describe it as a same gender relationship but it is not a same sex relationship.

The Equality Act doesn't say that if you go through Gender Re-assignment then you are the other sex by the way.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 12/08/2022 22:09

I'm an old fashioned (50+) bisexual woman. I have lesbian friends who felt the need to get married to men to hide their sexuality. I have lesbian friends who went through conversion therapy and worse at the hands of their parents who thought it could be beaten out of you. Like it was some sort of curse.

Thankfully, in the last couple of decades, those friends have gone on to legally marry their same sex partners. I found this refreshing and progressive.

However, some of my lesbian / female gay friends have found themselves besieged by people with dicks via Online Dating. I've found the same thing. If I choose to seek a woman via online dating, I do not expect to find a man masquerading as a woman. Furthermore, I do not wish to have a man who is getting off sexually on pretending to be a woman. Which, unfortunately has been my experience. And when I say experience, I mean repeatedly and with the sole purpose of kink.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:07

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/08/2022 10:33

it's unusual for people who believe gender is more important than sex to provide any reasoning, so this is refreshing, thank you.

Gender critical people tend to define sex as being essentially about whether you are the type of human that produces small or large gametes

while that's not the only thing that governs attraction, it's a big part of it. I have always been very sure that I wanted children. As a heterosexual woman I had a reasonable expectation that I would bear my partner's children and share their care with him. As a heterosexual man he had the expectation that his partner would bear his children yadda yadda. While I understand that isn't the way it pans out for every heterosexual couple, I would never have selected a partner where that future was a complete impossibility due to the kind of body they had.

also without going into too much detail, I enjoy PIV sex. I would not select a partner who couldn't do that. (yes yes, sex toys, fingers blah blah. not the same)

a woman who has taken hormones and had radical cosmetic surgery, spent her life learning to talk about herself and sit on the train with her legs spread will still never be able to impregnate another woman.

your reasoning seems to be that what people look like is more important than what they are . it seems peculiarly superficial.

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Thanks, although I should clarify, I don’t believe ‘gender is more important than sex’ - there are obviously many situations where sex is crucial - such as reproduction.

When you talk about reproductive potential being an important factor for you in choosing a partner, is that really a matter of sexuality and attraction, or about making sensible choices in light of what you want from your life? Although I’m bisexual, I could have chosen to settle down with a man if it had been important to me to have a child carrying both my and my partner’s genes - I would still have been bisexual.

And re piv sex - that completely makes sense. I have a friend who always says she could see herself being with a woman if it weren’t for how important piv sex is to her. I’ve never had piv sex, so I don’t know what all the fuss is about :) As a side note, there are probably people who would try to tell me I’m actually a lesbian for that reason.

On the point about superficiality - I can’t really see why it is better for one’s attraction to be determined by a person having the biology to produce small gametes or large gametes (or indeed, the nature of their genitals) than anything else about them - including their personality, which, as many people on here would agree, is not determined by biological sex.

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ImWell · 12/08/2022 21:53

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 21:49

I don’t know if my friend has changed, she may always have been potentially attracted to trans women. And I certainly haven’t changed, I’ve always been bisexual, I don’t remember ever thinking that lesbians weren’t allowed to be attracted to trans women.

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Or, in a precise analogue, that vegans could not enjoy a rabbit stew, steak tartare, and a dozen ortalan?

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 21:49

Blister · 12/08/2022 02:10

This was your opening question correct?

"If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?"

In other words, why should my friend need to change her mental image of herself even if her situation has changed, with or without her knowledge? (just glossing over how creepy the never knowing bit is...)
Or as you seem to want to interpret it: your definition does not fit my friend's image of herself, please change it.

Lesbianism hasn't changed. You and especially your friend have.

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I don’t know if my friend has changed, she may always have been potentially attracted to trans women. And I certainly haven’t changed, I’ve always been bisexual, I don’t remember ever thinking that lesbians weren’t allowed to be attracted to trans women.

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VestofAbsurdity · 12/08/2022 21:45

if a trans woman knows the woman she’s chatting up is a lesbian rather than bisexual, she should probably make them aware she’s trans before anything happens.

probably??? No probably about it, ffs.

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 21:44

Saying 'I am a lesbian' is the boundary and it should be respected by all men, however they identify.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 21:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 08:35

so it is clear that where the Equality Act refers to ‘sex’, if a trans woman has a GRC, their sex is female, and if a trans man has a GRC, their sex is male.

No, because exemptions can be applied to them on the grounds of their sex, based on either the Gender Recognition Act or the Equality Act. So their legal position is subtly different from that of a biological female.

But I don’t think that affects how a trans person with a GRC would be regarded for the purposes of the definition of sexual orientation? A trans man with a GRC who is only attracted to men would be regarded as sexually orientated towards people of the same sex.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 21:36

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/08/2022 16:57

there is an important difference though,

There is another difference too. When this hypothetical vegan hosts a vegan meal, do they insist on putting honey in it? Or do they think, well, a lot of vegans don't agree that honey is vegan and I'd better respect that?

No, they shouldn’t put honey in the food of the vegans who don’t eat honey. I suppose the analogy would be a trans woman who passed (if we assume such a person exists) having some sort of romantic or sexual interaction with a lesbian, while knowing that the lesbian wouldn’t want to have sex with them if she knew the woman was trans. Which would be wrong. And to take the analogy further, the vegan who eats honey should probably check whether the other vegans eat honey or not before offering them the food, and similarly, if a trans woman knows the woman she’s chatting up is a lesbian rather than bisexual, she should probably make them aware she’s trans before anything happens.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 18:32

There is another difference too. When this hypothetical vegan hosts a vegan meal, do they insist on putting honey in it? Or do they think, well, a lot of vegans don't agree that honey is vegan and I'd better respect that?

YY.

QueenHippolyta · 12/08/2022 17:14

Guess what, I am not only a lesbian but I eat vegan food too! But I am not a vegan because I also eat fish and monthly meat ( for my health)
So I cook Vegan food and eat Vegan food. But I am not a Vegan!

If you are female and sleep with men you are straight or bi. That's it!!

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/08/2022 16:57

there is an important difference though,

There is another difference too. When this hypothetical vegan hosts a vegan meal, do they insist on putting honey in it? Or do they think, well, a lot of vegans don't agree that honey is vegan and I'd better respect that?

ImWell · 12/08/2022 16:46

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 12/08/2022 16:34

@QueenHippolyta Oh jeez poor you. I know exactly what you mean. I once got tricked into such a 'date' he was fucking weird right up until I said something that collapsed his fantasy bubble and then he immediately turned aggressive. Fortunately I was so sure that it wasn't a date that I'd brought my boyfriend and best friend, who were playing pool about 30ft away. "Be kind" is a totally one way street.

Why were you going on a date at all if you had a boyfriend?

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 12/08/2022 16:34

@QueenHippolyta Oh jeez poor you. I know exactly what you mean. I once got tricked into such a 'date' he was fucking weird right up until I said something that collapsed his fantasy bubble and then he immediately turned aggressive. Fortunately I was so sure that it wasn't a date that I'd brought my boyfriend and best friend, who were playing pool about 30ft away. "Be kind" is a totally one way street.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 16:26

No, that’s quite disingenuous. A “lesbian” who has sex with males is analogous to a vegan who enjoys going to an all-you-can-eat Brazilian steakhouse every Friday.

A lesbian who can sort of understand why some women like George Clooney, as he does have a very good look is a better match to a vegan who has honey.

You are trying to imply that there are gradations in “maleness”, which there are not; sex is a strict binary. Pretending that a man who identifies or dresses as a woman is somehow less male is not tenable. Every male is 100% male.

Yes, this. Perfectly put.

ImWell · 12/08/2022 13:17

According to your “definition” of what a lesbian is, my husband could sensibly define himself as one. He’s purely attracted to females, and always has been.

This means that the word is so diluted as to have become useless. Let’s admit it, that’s the entire point here isn’t it; to take away the very language that lesbians use to describe themselves so that it’s easier for a predatory male to coerce them into having sex with them.

This would be reason enough to give a flat “no” to people trying to redefine the word, but as per the many posts above, it’s far from the only reason.

TheWeeDonkey · 12/08/2022 13:10

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 01:01

I think everyone, regardless of their own sex, gender or sexuality, should accept that when a lesbian continues to consider herself a lesbian after having been attracted to or had a relationship with a trans woman, they should accept that that is her validly held belief about her own sexuality, and she knows better than them.

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I thought that is Pansexual?

BadNomad · 12/08/2022 13:07

But what if a vegan eats a cow who identifies as a pot of honey? Is the vegan still a vegan because they think a vegan who eats honey is still a vegan?

ImWell · 12/08/2022 13:04

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 13:00

I did, sorry, and I meant to come back to it.

the analogy with vegans is an interesting one, but I don’t think the correct comparison is a person who eats meat and claims to be a vegan, because there can be no doubt (and as far as I’m aware, no one is attempting to argue) that eating meat contradicts the very essence of veganism.

I think the better analogy is a vegan who eats honey. As I understand it, many but not all vegans consider eating honey to be incompatible with a vegan diet. So the fact that some vegans consider they can eat honey and still correctly call themselves vegan may be offensive to some other vegans, and make life a bit more complicated for vegans who don’t eat honey (because non-vegans may not automatically realise that they can’t eat honey).

there is an important difference though, in that adopting a vegan diet is generally at least in part an ethical choice, so if two vegans were arguing about whether they should eat meat, the substance would probably focus on the practical consequences and ethics involved in honey production. Being a lesbian is different, because most people don’t experience their sexuality as chosen, and the argument wouldn’t be about whether it was ethically ok or not to sleep with a trans woman - it would be purely about the concept of what it is to be a lesbian.

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No, that’s quite disingenuous. A “lesbian” who has sex with males is analogous to a vegan who enjoys going to an all-you-can-eat Brazilian steakhouse every Friday.

A lesbian who can sort of understand why some women like George Clooney, as he does have a very good look is a better match to a vegan who has honey.

You are trying to imply that there are gradations in “maleness”, which there are not; sex is a strict binary. Pretending that a man who identifies or dresses as a woman is somehow less male is not tenable. Every male is 100% male.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 13:00

ImWell · 12/08/2022 09:07

Did you even read the analogy about vegans? Would you think it was sensible to eat meat, regularly, and then tell people that, to you, that’s what a vegan is, and that no-one shoujd disagree with you?

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I did, sorry, and I meant to come back to it.

the analogy with vegans is an interesting one, but I don’t think the correct comparison is a person who eats meat and claims to be a vegan, because there can be no doubt (and as far as I’m aware, no one is attempting to argue) that eating meat contradicts the very essence of veganism.

I think the better analogy is a vegan who eats honey. As I understand it, many but not all vegans consider eating honey to be incompatible with a vegan diet. So the fact that some vegans consider they can eat honey and still correctly call themselves vegan may be offensive to some other vegans, and make life a bit more complicated for vegans who don’t eat honey (because non-vegans may not automatically realise that they can’t eat honey).

there is an important difference though, in that adopting a vegan diet is generally at least in part an ethical choice, so if two vegans were arguing about whether they should eat meat, the substance would probably focus on the practical consequences and ethics involved in honey production. Being a lesbian is different, because most people don’t experience their sexuality as chosen, and the argument wouldn’t be about whether it was ethically ok or not to sleep with a trans woman - it would be purely about the concept of what it is to be a lesbian.

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