Page 25 | Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

aseriesofstillimages · 2022-08-07T11:36:09+00:00

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian. Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

LK1972 · 12/08/2022 23:16

Yes @aseriesofstillimages , 'the workplace would be discriminating on the basis of a perception that he is gay' - that could be a case, how would it apply in your friend's scenario?

Would she be discriminated against because everyone thought her partner was a lesbian and discriminated because of that?

Or would she be discriminated against if people at work didn't agree with her expressed insistence that she's a lesbian if she's in a relationship with a transwoman?

I suggest yes in the former and not a latter scenario, what do you think?

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:16

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:09

If I'm right on the name changes, Op works in law but isn't a lawyer.

I am most certainly a lawyer, and in this area.

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ImWell · 12/08/2022 23:16

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:41

It literally does, here it is again:

Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

it says it in the brackets

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No, your claim was that it applies if you go through gender reassignment. The act refers to the legal,treatment if you receive a GRC. Are you going to pretend that you do not understand the difference?

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 23:15

I hope you did some warm up stretches before making that reach. You've gone from complaining about women discussing the law on Mumsnet, to creating a fictional woman harassing someone else at work.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:15

LK1972 · 12/08/2022 23:10

@aseriesofstillimages Whenever the legislation is unclear it's purpose is interpreted through the explanatory notes.

Suella Braverman used EA explanation notes in her latest speech to prove her argument.

You don't seem to understand how the law works.

but in this case the law isn’t unclear, so there is no need to rely on the ex notes.

Honestly, on the basis of that speech I’d say I understand better how the law works than the AG does. Which is a pretty sorry state of affairs.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:13

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:09

For example, if a trans man wasn’t out as trans in his workplace, but they find out he has a male partner and discriminate against him because he is gay, that would be discrimination on the basis of him being same sex orientated. Admittedly, even if that wasn’t the case, the workplace would be discriminating on the basis of a perception that he is gay. But I’m pretty sure the correct basis would be the former - he is a man for the purposes of the EA, and if he is attracted only to men, his sexual orientation is towards people of the same sex.

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On the second point, I would be very surprised if an employer would be found to have discriminated against someone on the basis of their GC beliefs if the employer sanctioned the person for telling a lesbian colleague who was in a relationship with a trans woman that they were really in a heterosexual relationship because her partner is really a man. The EAT Forstater decision made pretty clear that this sort of expression of belief is unlikely to be protected.

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Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 23:12

For example, if a trans man wasn’t out as trans in his workplace, but they find out he has a male partner and discriminate against him because he is gay,

Can you parse this into plain English? If a workplace finds out a woman (a person without a GRC so a woman for legal purposes) has a male partner, how will she be discriminated against from being gay?

Discriminating against someone because you think they are gay is unlawful. Sexual orientation or a GRC are red herrings in this example.

LK1972 · 12/08/2022 23:10

@aseriesofstillimages Whenever the legislation is unclear it's purpose is interpreted through the explanatory notes.

Suella Braverman used EA explanation notes in her latest speech to prove her argument.

You don't seem to understand how the law works.

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 23:09

I've archived the previous page because obviously, this never happens.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:09

LK1972 · 12/08/2022 23:04

What would be an example of discrimination, harassment or victimization covered under the EA that would affect 'a trans man with a GRC who is only attracted to men would count as having a sexual orientation towards the same sex, for the purposes of the Equality Act.' @aseriesofstillimages please? A discrimination through perception in a work place/other place - yes, sure could occur.

If you tell someone they're not lesbians if they are in het relationship in workplace I'd think that'd be covered as an expression of GC belief, although IANAL.

I mean there's unlikely to be a test case, 'cos who cares unless they make others tell lies - then there may have be a GC court case to explain the obvious to the deluded.

For example, if a trans man wasn’t out as trans in his workplace, but they find out he has a male partner and discriminate against him because he is gay, that would be discrimination on the basis of him being same sex orientated. Admittedly, even if that wasn’t the case, the workplace would be discriminating on the basis of a perception that he is gay. But I’m pretty sure the correct basis would be the former - he is a man for the purposes of the EA, and if he is attracted only to men, his sexual orientation is towards people of the same sex.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:09

If I'm right on the name changes, Op works in law but isn't a lawyer.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:07

Other members of the opposite sex, not other men.

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 23:07

@aseriesofstillimages I posted the link that refutes your claim just before your comment.

A GRC does not mean a person changes sex, and it does not mean they change their legal gender for all purposes. There are exemptions that are not counted as discrimination.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:06

Males with GRCs are not the same as women legally because there are exemptions possible, where other members of their sex would be included.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:05

No it isn't.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 22:53

But I don’t think that affects how a trans person with a GRC would be regarded for the purposes of the definition of sexual orientation? A trans man with a GRC who is only attracted to men would be regarded as sexually orientated towards people of the same sex.

I'd genuinely appreciate it if you can cite the case law for this.

There doesn’t need to be any case law, but it is clear on the terms of the legislation.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:04

What relevance does a government piece of paper from the Ministry of Truth have to someone's sexual orientation?

LK1972 · 12/08/2022 23:04

What would be an example of discrimination, harassment or victimization covered under the EA that would affect 'a trans man with a GRC who is only attracted to men would count as having a sexual orientation towards the same sex, for the purposes of the Equality Act.' @aseriesofstillimages please? A discrimination through perception in a work place/other place - yes, sure could occur.

If you tell someone they're not lesbians if they are in het relationship in workplace I'd think that'd be covered as an expression of GC belief, although IANAL.

I mean there's unlikely to be a test case, 'cos who cares unless they make others tell lies - then there may have be a GC court case to explain the obvious to the deluded.

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 23:03

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 22:51

apart from the fact that ‘lesbian’ is not defined in law

Yes it is. Lesbians are defined as same sex attracted. Gender has nothing to do with it.

''A woman who is attracted only to other women is a lesbian.''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

Those are the explanatory notes, which aren’t actually part of the legislation.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 23:02

DarkDayforMN
It must be the forbidden, taboo nature of it. You aren’t allowed to ask to see the GRC, despite the uncontrollable lust it apparently excites in you. You can’t even ask if it exists. A permanent state of teasing and temptation.

😂

Yes it is funny, @aseriesofstillimages but you realise that @NecessaryScene was making a point about your claims, no? What do you think about the idea that only the males with GRCs make it possible for males to be called women and their partners to call themselves lesbians?

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 23:01

Even with a GRC, a persons gender presentation does not trump the protected characteristic of sex.
If a service provider can lawfully exclude trans people from a rape crisis counselling session; then so can lesbians exclude them from their dating pool.

''There are circumstances where a lawfully-established separate or single-sex service provider can prevent, limit or modify trans people’s access to the service. This is allowed under the Act.''
www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/08/2022 22:53

But I don’t think that affects how a trans person with a GRC would be regarded for the purposes of the definition of sexual orientation? A trans man with a GRC who is only attracted to men would be regarded as sexually orientated towards people of the same sex.

I'd genuinely appreciate it if you can cite the case law for this.

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 22:51

apart from the fact that ‘lesbian’ is not defined in law

Yes it is. Lesbians are defined as same sex attracted. Gender has nothing to do with it.

''A woman who is attracted only to other women is a lesbian.''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:46

Thelnebriati · 12/08/2022 22:36

A GRC does not change a persons legal sex for all purposes. What gave you that idea?
Are you claiming that lesbians must include trans people with a GRC in their dating pool? If so, this thread has become an example of the cotton ceiling.

Well, for all purposes subject to some specific exceptions.

No, of course I’m not saying that. I was responding to someone who claimed that ‘lesbian’ is defined in law as a biological female who is exclusively attracted to biological females.

apart from the fact that ‘lesbian’ is not defined in law, I was pointing out that, even though the Equality Act defines sexual orientation in terms of a person being orientated towards the same sex, or the opposite sex, or both, that definition has to be read in light of the GRA - so a trans man with a GRC who is only attracted to men would count as having a sexual orientation towards the same sex, for the purposes of the Equality Act.

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Original poster

aseriesofstillimages · 12/08/2022 22:41

ImWell · 12/08/2022 22:32

No, it doesn’t. Your quote does not say that.

Show quote history

It literally does, here it is again:

Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

it says it in the brackets

OP posts: